| User Info
| Frog Stew ... Starving the Monkeys ... Freedom Radio in forum [FedUp]
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Dtlgc
Posts: 936
Incept: 2007-11-26
Texas
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Thanks for compiling this information Bezzle.
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Bozonian
Posts: 19889
Incept: 2007-09-01
Saratoga Springs, New York
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There does need to be management of shared resources lest you get the tragedy of the commons.
For example, if a river, creek or stream goes through my property, do I have the right to dam it so that everyone downstream is screwed?
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Forget about blaming, fighting with, or crediting other people. The only real challenge in life, is with yourself. -- Me
Everything I write is my opinion and not to be considered proven fact. Nothing I write should be considered financial advice.
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Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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Quote:There does need to be management of shared resources.... There is no logically valid argument you can make which gives you the right to initiate force.
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Obsidian
Posts: 2448
Incept: 2008-10-10
Eagle Mountain, Utah
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Thanks Bezzle. :)
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232-Th + n --> 233-Th --> 233-Pa --> 233-U.
Trolling is a art.
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Jotapay
Posts: 16733
Incept: 2008-08-26
Austin, Tx
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Quote:There is no logically valid argument you can make which gives you the right to initiate force. Not to pick a fight with you, but that is sometimes true. |
Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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That implies that is is sometimes not true.
-- If you're arguing that, then I say you should save time and just mail me the shirt off your back right now.
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Crystalclear
Posts: 338
Incept: 2009-02-19
Paradise
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Where should this question/thought go?-
Is it a better idea to add to beast's weight or let it go and wait natural demise?- I've had several thoughts lately that would add to the burden of government.
Thought recently about ways of bringing down system with non violent paths. Ie- SNAP/foodstamps- Is it better to apply for SNAP knowing you probably won't qualify and cause workers to "work" or just let it go?
Called the local and fed gov't about tax issue and with both was on hold for hours. Had to call several times over 2 weeks. Sometimes I wasn't even able to be placed in a queue of callers. Seriously disgusted and frustrated I thought about what if thousands of people called and asked questions...or hung up as soon as person answered. Is this bringing down the beast faster or just a silly attempt at overwhelming system and hurting other people like myself in need? Would the workers complain too much work and get overtime? Would system point to data of calls and get more stupid jobs and thus more feeding the beast created?
What do you think?
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Karl Denninger "You can't successfully tax people with no job and no money. "
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Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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Quote:Seriously disgusted and frustrated I thought about what if thousands of people.... I thing it's a pointless waste of time to even imagine that you'll ever be in a position to get "thousands of people" to do anything. Seriously: if you're thinking about it now, you're wasting your time. Doing so hypothetically is an even bigger waste of time (unless you're plotting a dystopian comic-book).
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Downrange
Posts: 5386
Incept: 2007-09-26
Just Say No to RomnobamaDingDong!
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"If this is how the state treats its law-abiding citizens, it doesn't deserve to have any" A. Solzhenitzen
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Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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Baugh is at least half nuts whenever he wanders off his subject of expertise into the mine-fields of religion and foreign policy.
Islam is the greatest scourge in human history; and anyone who doesn't realize that is out of his ****ing mind -- but let's keep that in another thread.
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Downrange
Posts: 5386
Incept: 2007-09-26
Just Say No to RomnobamaDingDong!
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Link? Happy to comply with thread management...
I'm still surprised at the lack of discussion (interest?) in the basic tenets Baugh offers - and my own view is that his stuff is remarkably coherent and focused, including most of his comments I've read on religion and foreign policy. His four-part series on "taxating" is outstanding, for instance.
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"If this is how the state treats its law-abiding citizens, it doesn't deserve to have any" A. Solzhenitzen
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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Bezzle wrote..Islam is the greatest scourge in human history; and anyone who doesn't realize that is out of his ****ing mind -- but let's keep that in another thread. Since two of the people you cite at the beginning of this thread (Molyneux and Baugh) agree that Islam is only a threat because of the state I don't see how that conversation isn't relevant to this thread. |
Elliott_wave
Posts: 610
Incept: 2007-08-25
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Abn0rmal,
I agree with you. Would islam be such a big deal if it wasn't for the fact it is backed by the overwhelming force of the state?
Christianity didn't moderate until it was separated from the state. As Baugh shows, our secular govt isn't all that different from the islamist theocracy in substance, but merely in form.
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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Sharia Law Versus The Non Aggression Principle - Anarchy and Crazy Laws:
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Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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Quote:Since two of the people you cite at the beginning of this thread (Molyneux and Baugh) agree that Islam is only a threat because of the state I don't see how that conversation isn't relevant to this thread. They're wrong. "Islam" = "Submission"...submission to what?A "STATE" run by Islamic clerics".(This is the essential problem with almost everyone who comes to liberty from a leftwing or isolationist perspective: they're complete ****ing idiots when it comes to understanding how evil actually works, and they simply cannot fathom that a market for any particular endeavor -- e.g., the market for kicking bad guy ass -- is not rendered morally illegitimate merely because a government has forcibly nationalized all providers in that market.)
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Elliott_wave
Posts: 610
Incept: 2007-08-25
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Bezzle,
The US govt is hanging on through massive disinformation and propaganda. When this ediface collapses, what makes you think Islamists, Chinese, Martians, or any other group of crackpots will be able to put Humptey Dumptey back together?
Islam is an odeous religion -- no argument. But more people are abused by fed gov bureaucrats than from islamists or other "terrorists"
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Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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Quote:Quote:Quote:Since two of the people you cite at the beginning of this thread (Molyneux and Baugh) agree that Islam is only a threat because of the state I don't see how that conversation isn't relevant to this thread. They're wrong.
"Islam" = "Submission"
...submission to what?
A "STATE" run by Islamic clerics".
The US govt is hanging on through massive disinf--*stomp*
Hey: Do you know what a non-sequitur is? Reply to my argument. Quote:When this ediface collapses, what makes you think Islamists, Chinese, Martians, or any other group of crackpots will be able to put Humptey Dumptey back together? Define your term. I have no idea what you're talking about in the context of Islamist ambitions (which don't give a **** about world banks or any of that other crap which endlessly fascinates peoples who otherwise couldn't bring themselves to give the least damn that, say, 25% of the population of Niger are slaves in the 21st century).
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Downrange
Posts: 5386
Incept: 2007-09-26
Just Say No to RomnobamaDingDong!
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Not sure (but I have a suspicion) how the discussion got shunted into the evils of Islam, rather than the parallels Baugh makes between Sharia Law and the banco-nationalist memes successfully propagated here:
"Sharia law is already all around you, but one cannot recognize a prison if it is in the shape of one's choices. You have been placed in a Judeo-Christian-Enviromento-Feminized cage, and then taught in school, at church and at work to make decisions which keep you safely within it. The political conflict which you think exists between major factions is merely a play to keep you blind to the reality of your imprisonment."
Not to single you out, Bezzle, but I've observed your presence on multiple threads, apparently championing Baugh's work, but at the same time, constantly repeating the "power to tax" argument, which, unfortunately, then becomes the most visible aspect of his body of work to folks here. No argument that first principles are important, and it's a safe bet that things would devolve into what they are today, because, just as Franklin warned, "a Republic, if you can keep it." Eternal vigilance is price of freedom, and so on. Now, you seem to be dismissive of what I see as one of his better articles, in that it's controversial and encourages thinking outside the usual boxes.
Again, where is another thread where Baugh is discussed, other than here? What forum is suitable for this discussion (Karl, Steph?) I see no disconnect whatsoever in any of his writings, political or otherwise, and would like to be able to discuss them. Do you moderate here? If so, please advise where we are free to discuss these things.
I would very much enjoy the opportunity to counter your position on the tax issue, and have thought a good bit about that.
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"If this is how the state treats its law-abiding citizens, it doesn't deserve to have any" A. Solzhenitzen
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Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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Quote:Not to single you out, Bezzle, but I've observed your presence on multiple threads, apparently championing Baugh's work, but at the same time, constantly repeating the "power to tax" argument, which, unfortunately, then becomes the most visible aspect of his body of work to folks here. It's "unfortunate" that I key on him when he's making sense, and don't when he's not? -- You know, I'm are seriously going to chuck those videos of his right out the ****ing window (there's no editing time-limit for the first post of a pinned thread) if it turns out he's yet another crank without a consistently integrated logical appreciation of reality. Seriously: I can do it right now.
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Downrange
Posts: 5386
Incept: 2007-09-26
Just Say No to RomnobamaDingDong!
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OK, since there's no place else to do it, apparently, how do you handle just one technology that has emerged since the Republic's founding, other than by some kind of Federal .gov that, in theory at least, should be only what is needed, and answerable to John Q. Our Nuclear Weapons: in particular the development, maintenance, and deployment of our nuclear stockpile. See, nukes didn't exist in 1776, as everyone knows. Who taxes and funds the Manhattan project? Roosevelt or Hitler? Which banco-nationalist country ascends in mid-twentieth century? Understand, I'm not fundamentally in disagreement with Baugh (or you, for that matter) about the flaw(s) in the Constitution, I'm just asking what I see as a reasonable question. Nukes' time came up, who's gonna get 'em? We garage inventors lacked the needed resources to mount the Manhattan project. I wonder how Ayn would handle this one? For all the evils of big .gov, and they are legion, I don't see any way to manage defense other than by a large central .gov. Again, if this isn't the place to discuss this, please point out where such a place exists. Happy to comply. Here's Tom's page with some videos: http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com/Videos....
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"If this is how the state treats its law-abiding citizens, it doesn't deserve to have any" A. Solzhenitzen
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Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Downrange
Posts: 5386
Incept: 2007-09-26
Just Say No to RomnobamaDingDong!
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Well, that sounds like a non-sequitur, to use a recent expression...
One thing Baugh certainly understands, as a trained Marine, is the need for groups of people to be able to apply force, when needed, for common protection. Saying no one "ever has the right to initiate force" has virtually nothing to do with the issue I posited - the emergency of nuclear warfare in the mid-twentieth century.
Try again. Not sure how many posts I get under the new rules, but if the discussions become interesting enough, I'll cough up some more bux for Karl. :)
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"If this is how the state treats its law-abiding citizens, it doesn't deserve to have any" A. Solzhenitzen
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Elliott_wave
Posts: 610
Incept: 2007-08-25
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Bezzle,
Humptey dumptey = national govt.
Once the US govt collapses, what makes you think Islam of all things, is a particular threat?
As for his "crackpot" theories: you seem to underestimate the power that a small percentage of finance people hold, to the point they are on more than equal terms with "government" than subordinate to it.
A govt can't exist without someone putting up the capital to buy that first round of weapons, and to impose their will upon the difuse many.
You sound like one of those "anti-communists" who advocated for American troops to be put all over the world, to restrain its spread from "global domination." Seriously, don't you think it is probabble that was just BS to generate business for military contractors, and the financers of the govt who do business with them?
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Bezzle
Posts: 15043
Incept: 2009-08-02
Banned
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Downrange wrote..One thing Baugh certainly understands, as a trained Marine, is the need for groups of people to be able to apply force-- I said initiate force, not "apply" force. These are crucial distinctions. Quote:...when needed, for common protection. Saying no one "ever has the right to initiate force" has virtually nothing to do with the issue I posited - the emergency of nuclear warfare in the mid-twentieth century. If you are arguing that somebody should have the right to initiate force (for the "common good" or any other spurious pretext), then you are arguing for a tyranny. Elliott_wave wrote..Once the US govt collapses, what makes you think Islam of all things, is a particular threat? You mean, aside from the fact that a central tenant of the faith is the eventual submission of the entire world to it? When I wrote "25% of the population of Niger are slaves in the 21st century," did it just go in one eyeball and out the other? Quote:You sound like one of those "anti-communists" who advocated for American troops to be put all over the world... I wrote: "a market for any particular endeavor -- e.g., the market for kicking bad guy ass -- is not rendered morally illegitimate merely[ because a government has forcibly nationalized all providers in that market."Is the market for transportation rendered illegitimate merely because a government has forcibly nationalized the roads, rails and airports? No. Is the market for sewage-treatment rendered illegitimate merely because a government has forcibly nationalized the pipes to your house? No.
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El Sock-Puppeto exposed and killed by Tickerguy
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Downrange
Posts: 5386
Incept: 2007-09-26
Just Say No to RomnobamaDingDong!
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Bezzle, you always struck me as a bright poster, if somewhat obstinate and abrasive at times. If not for your posts, I would not have found out about Baugh and the related sites. Please address the actual issue I raised, which is NOT the initiation of force. It is the evolving technology for the application of force (nukes), the resources and organization needed for its development, and the question of who will master and deploy the potential weapon. We did, beating Germany, some say narrowly. Both are states.
You're bright, how do you handle this without a central government?
(It's not the initiation of force that's in question here, Bezzle, someone WILL initiate force. That is human history. The question is who will win the contest between empires, nations, etc. I hope you're not thinking that if we all just sit here in our great anarcho-capitalist homes, that the bad guys will behave, and that, when they initiate a (greater) force, we'll somehow be able to repel them by our moral superiority.)
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"If this is how the state treats its law-abiding citizens, it doesn't deserve to have any" A. Solzhenitzen
Reason: clarity
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