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User Info Possible melt-down of Jap nuke plant in forum [NotSoBreaking]
Gridking
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Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists Sep 1980

http://tinyurl.com/4k6cplk

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"Everything in the world may be endured except continued prosperity." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Ark
Posts: 1163
Incept: 2009-07-10

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For people who have Comcast Digital, they're throwing in the Japanese News stations round the clock reporting for free for the duration of this mess.

It's channel 245 here in (north) Western WA.

If you understand spoken Japanese (or read Chinese characters), there's more on-the -ground info there.

Mayorquimby
Posts: 13907
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The Archaic Past
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Same with Time Warner. 541 in NY by me.

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- Morrissey

Gold is theft.
Bigcowboy
Posts: 555
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From Stratfor:

Quote:

Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said March 12 that the explosion at the Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. This statement seemed somewhat at odds with Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano’s comments earlier March 12, in which he said “the walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode.”

NISA’s statement is significant because it is the government agency that reports to the Agency for Natural Resources and Energy within the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. NISA works in conjunction with the Atomic Energy Commission. Its role is to provide oversight to the industry and is responsible for signing off construction of new plants, among other things. It has been criticized for approving nuclear plants on geological fault lines and for an alleged conflict of interest in regulating the nuclear sector. It was NISA that issued the order for the opening of the valve to release pressure — and thus allegedly some radiation — from the Fukushima power plant.

NISA has also overseen the entire government response to the nuclear reactor problems following the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami. It is difficult to determine at this point whether the NISA statement is accurate, as the Nikkei report has not been corroborated by others. It is also not clear from the context whether NISA is stating the conclusions of an official assessment or simply making a statement. However, the Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO), the operator of the Fukushima nuclear plant, also said that although it had relieved pressure, nevertheless some nuclear fuel had melted and further action was necessary to contain the pressure.

If this report is accurate, it would not be the first time statements by NISA and Edano have diverged. When Edano earlier claimed that radiation levels had fallen at the site after the depressurization efforts, NISA claimed they had risen due to the release of radioactive vapors.

This report may be forwarded or republished on your website with attribution to www.stratfor.com


webpage: http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/2011031....

-BigCowboy

Tsberts
Posts: 2350
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Gold
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Quote:
Construction of Unit 1, a 439-megawatt boiling water reactor, started in 1967, and commercial operation began in 1971. It was reportedly scheduled to be shut down on March 26.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con....

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Photoguy was an optimist.
In Soviet Russia, the banks are run by the politicians.
The cancer within the federal government has metastasized, it's now up to each of the states to contain the cancer.
Grody
Posts: 3731
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Conditions should get worse over next several days.
Quote:
Japan’s unfolding nuclear power crisis remains at an unstable, volatile stage, warn US nuclear experts who, while hopeful, say past nuclear accidents – at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl – grew far worse over several days before being controlled.

Their comments, which came during a Saturday conference call convened by anti-nuclear power groups, were in sharp contrast with reports by the Japanese government which appeared to indicate the main crisis in one of its nuclear reactors was past, although a state of emergency remained in effect for five reactors.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0312/J....

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Pain is weakness leaving the body. Bulls need more pain NOW.
The_venerable
Posts: 4864
Incept: 2009-01-31

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^^^Not credible considering the group who convened the conference, anything said at said conference should be taken with a grain of salt (or many).

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The kingdom is falling.
Grody
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May be right, Venerable, because there is a difference of opinion.
Quote:
Nuclear power advocates at the Nuclear Energy Institute in Washington said the Japanese government appeared to have the situation under control, and they took issue with the idea that history showed nuclear crises growing worse before getting better....(from same article.)
But it is good to get the perspective of anti-nuclear groups, for both sides of the issue.

Truth probably somewhere in the middle.

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Pain is weakness leaving the body. Bulls need more pain NOW.

Jonathanr
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Green
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Quote:
There are so many redundant ways to add makeup water that it would take an extreme numbers of independent failures to take out all of them.


In the risk and safety world, there are two contradictory ideas. Firstly there is the 'swiss cheese' model, which says that all the holes in the layers of protection line up to cause catastrophic accidents. Then there's the 'double jeopardy' principle used in HAZOP studies that says not to consider more than one failure at a time.

I have raised this inconsistency several times within HAZOP training and studies and risk reviews that I have participated in, but have never obtained a satisfactory answer from anyone. I think the reality simply is an aversion to cost, time and complexity.

March 11 happened to be double jeopardy day.

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Why do you complain? It's the criminals who decide how proceeds of crime are spent, not the victims.
Grody
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Quote:
Conditions should get worse over next several days.
It sounds like it is getting worse to me.
Quote:
Sendai, Japan (CNN) -- Japanese authorities are operating on the presumption that possible meltdowns are under way at two nuclear reactors, two days after a massive earthquake, a government official said Sunday........Edano told reporters there is a "possibility" of a meltdown at the plant's No. 1 reactor, adding, "It is inside the reactor. We can't see." He then said authorities are also "assuming the possibility of a meltdown" at the facility's No. 3 reactor....
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03....

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Pain is weakness leaving the body. Bulls need more pain NOW.
Etika
Posts: 243
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Some reality checks here:

Most nuclear power plants do have a way of connecting the fire suppression system or any other external pumps into the primary loop once they are in cold shutdown (primary loop unpressured and under 100 degrees Celsius) or near it. That's why cold shutdown is so important "turning point" in most accident simulations (and real accidents of course) as at that point you can use anything at hand to cool the core.

Additionally, remember that decay heat production falls constantly after shutdown. At this point it's some on the order of one thirtieth of what it was right after shutdown. While the fire suppression system would lack the pumping power to cool down a reactor right after shutdown, it should be plenty enough at this point. That decrease of the decay heat is the main reason that things are likely getting better at the moment.

Also, on that meltdown, the actual comments from the authorities say that the unit 1 and unit 3 cores did have a partial meltdown, but not that they are in metldown anymore. So, they expect that the top of the core is now a molten slab, but it is again under water and solidified. There doesn't seem to be no further risk of meltdown, but that partial metldown means that the coolant water will have a LOT more activity in it than normal and any steam vented or leaking will be a lot more active than normally.

Drench
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Following Edano's speech on Twitter. There is concern at Reactor 3 because although water is being pumped in the water level is not rising.
Drench
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BiggerInJapan: Edano: there is still a possibility of an explosion (hydrogen caused) at reactor three
Twitter - 5 minutes ago


KoivuDesign: Edano: currently radiation monitor shows no change. (via NHK)
Twitter - 5 minutes ago


BiggerInJapan: Q: possibility of tax increase to deal with the disaster. Edano: can not comment on that yet.
Twitter - 3 minutes ago

Drench
Posts: 28631
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gpjen: Detailed plan about planned power outage will be explained after this conference by Kaieda and Renho (by Edano)
Twitter - 5 minutes ago

JuliusTheOrange: Edano: There is a failure in the valve, but we do not know if it is a cause or effect of the water gauge failure.
Twitter - 3 minutes ago

DanielFurrUK: RT @RAGreeneCNN: Breaking: #Japan's Edano says sea water being pumped into #nuclear plant to cool it but water level not rising; Can't explain that
Twitter - 3 minutes ago
Schwantz
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I agree...partial meltdown is old news.

I think what we get is one more hydrogen blast, a trashed nuke plant, lots of contaminated water, and a bunch of anti-nuke sentiment around the world.

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When the system is corrupt absolutely you must seek representation by those who are absolutely incorruptible.
Drench
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Cadrieu: RT @MariKurisato: RT @makiwi: Edano: they've continued pouring sea water into 3rd reactor at no. 1 powerplant, but water leve… ... - More »
Mari Kurisato: "RT @makiwi: Edano: they've ..." « Deck.ly - tweetdeck.com
Twitter - seconds ago

reyven: reactor3 still seems to be critical. edano is very vague about what's going on. this is getting quite unnerving...
Twitter - seconds ago
Bigcowboy
Posts: 555
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New news article from Yahoo:

Quote:

TOKYO (AP) -- Japan declared states of emergency for five nuclear reactors at two power plants after the units lost cooling ability in the aftermath of Friday's powerful earthquake. Thousands of residents were evacuated as workers struggled to get the reactors under control to prevent meltdowns.

Operators at the Fukushima Daiichi plant's Unit 1 scrambled ferociously to tamp down heat and pressure inside the reactor after the 8.9 magnitude quake and the tsunami that followed cut off electricity to the site and disabled emergency generators, knocking out the main cooling system.

Some 3,000 people within two miles (three kilometers) of the plant were urged to leave their homes, but the evacuation zone was more than tripled to 6.2 miles (10 kilometers) after authorities detected eight times the normal radiation levels outside the facility and 1,000 times normal inside Unit 1's control room.

The government declared a state of emergency at the Daiichi unit -- the first at a nuclear plant in Japan's history. But hours later, the Tokyo Electric Power Co., which operates the six-reactor Daiichi site in northeastern Japan, announced that it had lost cooling ability at a second reactor there and three units at its nearby Fukushima Daini site.


webpage: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Japan-quak....

-BigCowboy
Gridking
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"Everything in the world may be endured except continued prosperity." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Crossthread
Posts: 4539
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headline MSNBC this morning..
Official: 2nd Japan nuclear reactor at risk of explosion
Problems also reported at three other reactors; 22 people have been contaminated with radiation


Japan was fighting to contain what could be the world's worst nuclear disaster in 25 years with the government warning there could be an explosion at a second reactor crippled by Friday's devastating earthquake.

More than 170,000 people have been evacuated from the area around two nuclear power plants in Fukushima as a precaution, officials said Sunday.

It was also confirmed that 22 people had been contaminated by radiation.

There is believed to have been a partial meltdown of the fuel rods following an explosion and leak Saturday from the No. 1 reactor at the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant, 150 miles north of Tokyo.

And engineers were pumping in seawater in an attempt to prevent the same thing from happening at Dai-ichi's No. 3 reactor.

"At the risk of raising further public concern, we cannot rule out the possibility of an explosion," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a news briefing.

And engineers were pumping in seawater in an attempt to prevent the same thing from happening at Dai-ichi's No. 3 reactor.

"At the risk of raising further public concern, we cannot rule out the possibility of an explosion," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a news briefing.


..He said if there was an explosion, "there would be no significant impact on human health."

Edano said neither Fukushima Dai-ichi reactor was near the point of complete meltdown, and he was confident of escaping the worst scenarios.

A meltdown at the No. 3 reactor could be more serious than at the other reactors because it is fuelled by both plutonium and uranium, BBC News reported. The others have only uranium fuel.


Moved quickly
Edano said they had moved more quickly to deal with the potential problem at the No. 3 reactor, in apparent acknowledgement that the authorities had moved too slowly on Saturday.

"Unlike the No.1 reactor, we ventilated and injected water at an early stage," he said. People living within about 12 miles of the Dai-ichi plant have been evacuated.

Nuclear plant operator Tokyo Electric Power, known as TEPCO, also said Sunday it was preparing pressure reducing measures for the nearby Fukushima Daini power station, where four reactors were shut down due to earthquakes.

Releases of air with radioactive material were being considered for Daini units 1, 2, and 3. People living within six miles of that plant have been evacuated.

GE-designed reactors in Fukushima have 23 sisters in U.S.
TEPCO said radiation levels around the Dai-ichi plant had risen above the safety limit but that this did not mean an "immediate threat" to human health.

Japan earthquake Report: 2nd Japan nuclear meltdown likely under way
A partial meltdown is likely under way at a second quake-stricken nuclear reactor while efforts are under way to stop a meltdown at another, a top Japanese official says.

The disaster prompted an angry response from an anti-nuclear energy NGO in Japan which said it should have been foreseen.

"A nuclear disaster which the promoters of nuclear power in Japan said wouldn't happen is in progress," the Citizens' Nuclear Information Center said. "It is occurring as a result of an earthquake that they said would not happen."

A Japanese official said there were 190 people within a six-mile radius of the Dai-ichi plant when radiation levels rose and 22 people have been confirmed to have suffered contamination.

The severity of their exposure, or if it had reached dangerous levels, was not clear. They were being taken to hospitals.




Radiation risk from nuclear plant seen as worrisome

..Any complete meltdown — the collapse of a power plant's systems and its ability to keep temperatures under control — could release uranium and dangerous contaminants into the environment and pose major, widespread health risks.

Pouring sea water into a reactor likely renders it unusable, said a foreign ministry official briefing reporters.

'Hail Mary pass'
Robert Alvarez, senior scholar at the Institute for Policy Studies and former senior policy adviser to the U.S. secretary of energy, told reporters that the seawater was a desperate measure.

"It's a Hail Mary pass," he said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42056237/ns/....

Interesting to know the 2 NUKE plants in My backyard are the same design....

General Electric-designed reactors in Fukushima have 23 sisters in U.S.By Bill Dedman

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2....


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“Cognitive Co-Dependency” is when a normal rational person, internalizes irrational illogical presentations, and somehow reconciles them to fit their scripted indoctrination of logical analysis.
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Iflyjetzzz
Posts: 8876
Incept: 2007-07-29
Green A True American Patriot!
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Very interesting plain English assessment from an MIT scientist. http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/0....
I felt better after reading this. For those that understand this better, feel free to poke holes in it.
The end of the scientist's letter has his recommended links to monitor the situation. I haven't been to them yet but am posting them here:
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Bat....
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/12/ja....
http://ansnuclearcafe.org/2011/03/11/med....


Too much text to post; here's the start:
I am writing this text (Mar 12) to give you some peace of mind regarding some of the troubles in Japan, that is the safety of Japan’s nuclear reactors. Up front, the situation is serious, but under control. And this text is long! But you will know more about nuclear power plants after reading it than all journalists on this planet put together.

There was and will *not* be any significant release of radioactivity.

By “significant” I mean a level of radiation of more than what you would receive on – say – a long distance flight, or drinking a glass of beer that comes from certain areas with high levels of natural background radiation.

I have been reading every news release on the incident since the earthquake. There has not been one single (!) report that was accurate and free of errors (and part of that problem is also a weakness in the Japanese crisis communication). By “not free of errors” I do not refer to tendentious anti-nuclear journalism – that is quite normal these days. By “not free of errors” I mean blatant errors regarding physics and natural law, as well as gross misinterpretation of facts, due to an obvious lack of fundamental and basic understanding of the way nuclear reactors are build and operated. I have read a 3 page report on CNN where every single paragraph contained an error.

We will have to cover some fundamentals, before we get into what is going on.

Construction of the Fukushima nuclear power plants

The plants at Fukushima are so called Boiling Water Reactors, or BWR for short. Boiling Water Reactors are similar to a pressure cooker. The nuclear fuel heats water, the water boils and creates steam, the steam then drives turbines that create the electricity, and the steam is then cooled and condensed back to water, and the water send back to be heated by the nuclear fuel. The pressure cooker operates at about 250 °C.

The nuclear fuel is uranium oxide. Uranium oxide is a ceramic with a very high melting point of about 3000 °C. The fuel is manufactured in pellets (think little cylinders the size of Lego bricks). Those pieces are then put into a long tube made of Zircaloy with a melting point of 2200 °C, and sealed tight. The assembly is called a fuel rod. These fuel rods are then put together to form larger packages, and a number of these packages are then put into the reactor. All these packages together are referred to as “the core”.

The Zircaloy casing is the first containment. It separates the radioactive fuel from the rest of the world.

The core is then placed in the “pressure vessels”. That is the pressure cooker we talked about before. The pressure vessels is the second containment. This is one sturdy piece of a pot, designed to safely contain the core for temperatures several hundred °C. That covers the scenarios where cooling can be restored at some point.

The entire “hardware” of the nuclear reactor – the pressure vessel and all pipes, pumps, coolant (water) reserves, are then encased in the third containment. The third containment is a hermetically (air tight) sealed, very thick bubble of the strongest steel. The third containment is designed, built and tested for one single purpose: To contain, indefinitely, a complete core meltdown. For that purpose, a large and thick concrete basin is cast under the pressure vessel (the second containment), which is filled with graphite, all inside the third containment. This is the so-called “core catcher”. If the core melts and the pressure vessel bursts (and eventually melts), it will catch the molten fuel and everything else. It is built in such a way that the nuclear fuel will be spread out, so it can cool down.

This third containment is then surrounded by the reactor building. The reactor building is an outer shell that is supposed to keep the weather out, but nothing in. (this is the part that was damaged in the explosion, but more to that later).

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When the facts change, I change my mind, sir. What do you do?
Gridking
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Yep , appears to pretty much come down to whether or not high level radiation is contained, which so far seems to be, and each minute that passes since shutdown , risk is less accept for pressure releases, which appear to be necessary , but thus far they do not appear to be able to release pressure without explosion (from hydrogen buildup) attached which could cause more damage.

Most of what I know , I have pretty much learned in the last few days so just my assessment based on reading.

One concern I do have though, and perhaps someone can enlighten, is I believe I read somewhere that the current problem reactor #3 was listed as "HOT" in releases from Tepco or elsewhere and not sure if this is accurate or has changed.

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"Everything in the world may be endured except continued prosperity." -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Crossthread
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I posted this pic before, though this is what it looks like inside a BWR Core..

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“Cognitive Co-Dependency” is when a normal rational person, internalizes irrational illogical presentations, and somehow reconciles them to fit their scripted indoctrination of logical analysis.
Quote:
Samuel L. Clemens:There is NO Native Criminal Class; EXCEPT for CONgress
Bigbluffer
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Yes, regular water is preferable to sea water as using sea water seals the fate of nuclear reactors as far as future use. A lack of sufficient quantities of clear water available on hand has given them no choice but to use sea water however. Or so was said on CNN, by Japanese Ambassador to US. He confirmed use of sea water in cooling attempts of reactors #1, #3 at Daiichi (sp?). Japanese Ambassador also confirmed "damage" to core at reactor #1 but denied could be classified as "meltdown" at this stage.
Mangoelvis
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ummm, can we modify the title of this thread? I'm not trying to be politically correct here but "Jap" is a very offensive racial slur to Japanese people. I'm sure Bez was just abbreviating but this is hardly the time or the place to be insensitive. I'm sure there are a lot of new eyeballs on the site since this tragedy and it sends the wrong message.

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Abn0rmal
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Quote:
This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more.
"the plugs did not fit" is not a valid reason why portable generators could not get hooked up over the course of 8 hours. If the plugs don't fit you just cut them off and splice the wires in directly if that's what it takes. That the equipment was in shambles due to the earthquake and water damage is a lot more likely.

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