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| Why Everything Is Dirtier in forum [Consumer]
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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http://mises.org/daily/5267/Why-Everythi....Quote:I'm old enough to have a vague memory of clothes so white that they were called bright. This happened despite the absence of additives the ridiculous varieties of sprays and bottles and packets that festoon our cabinets today and that we throw into the wash to try to boost the cleaning power of our pathetic machines and increasingly useless laundry soap.
Then, the other night, I experienced an amazing blast from the past. I added a quarter cup of trisodium phosphate (TSP) and otherwise "treated" nothing. The results were nothing short of mind-boggling. Everything was clean clean in a way that I recall from childhood.
Next came my confrontation with the local dry cleaner, which I've used for years. I explained what happened and how puzzling it is that by using TSP I was able to clean my clothes more thoroughly and perfectly than his commercial service.
He was not shocked. He completely agreed, though sheepishly.
I pointed out that TSP, which is a natural element, is amazing not because it cleans it needs soap to do its thing but rather because it rinses, whooshing away all dirt, oil, stains, as well as all leftover detergent. Bleach whitens but it ruins fabrics, and that's not good. What is needed is a good rinsing agent that leaves clothes not only perfectly clean but also smelling fantastic. TSP does it, and that's why it has long been an essential ingredient in laundry soap.
Once again, he agreed.
Does he use it? No. And why not?
It is not "commercially viable," he said.
How can this be? It is not expensive. It is freely available at the hardware store in the paint section. If something works, the laundry service pleases its customers more. That means more business and higher profits. Isn't the goal to clean clothes well and do a good job for customers?
Yes, true, he said, but, again, TSP is not "commercially viable." He politely deferred all further questions to the Dry Cleaning and Laundry Institute, whose website provides no information at all to nonmembers. However, the Laundry Institute did answer my email:Quote:It is true that trisodium phosphate produces cleaner laundry. Bingo. Cleaner laundry. Cleaner than what? Anything else. Not "commercially viable" means that governments will no longer permit laundries to clean your shirts. You can add TSP at home government hasn't restricted that yet but commercial houses cannot. However, the Laundry Institute did say that "there are other ways to achieve a clean shirt." What are they? He didn't say. He said: "you will have to do some leg work to find a cleaner that meets your needs."
My needs? My needs are for clean clothes, same as the laundry needs of the whole of humanity since the beginning of time. The whole purpose of laundries is to meet that need.
Here's the problem, however. The goal of the regulators who regulate the laundry is not to improve your life. It is to wreck your life a bit at a time by pressing increasing numbers of restrictions and mandates upon private producers.
One of these mandates has removed TSP from detergent and with catastrophic results. No one wants to talk about this. There is a major hush-hush culture here because business, understandably, doesn't want to face a consumer backlash, and government doesn't want to acquire the reputation for being the civilization wrecker that it truly is.
These kinds of regulations are capable of driving an entire industry into the ground, as people with the intense desire for clean clothes the very people who are willing to pay for laundry services increasingly resort to home cleaning and ironing. An entire step in the structure of production is eliminated, as laundry autarky replaces the division of labor, which is the driving force of cooperative human effort.
It's no wonder that the industry wants no talk of this problem. Its very raison d'κtre is under attack. If laundries can't clean clothes, they have to shut down.
Does government care? If you read between the lines in the almost-candid moments of government statements, you can see what is going on here. In 2009, Clive Davies, a product engineer with the EPA, granted an interview with the New York Times that focused on home products. You might wonder what a product engineer is doing working for the government rather than the private sector. This interview shows why. Every one of the questions he is asked concerned the effect of home products on the environment. Not even one actually probed the essential question of whether the products actually work.
Mr. Davies's job is to decide whether to affix a supposedly valued designation to products: Designed for the Environment. It's pretty clear that anything that actually cleans, washes, or scrubs probably can't earn the designation. An empty box that claims to be detergent stands a better chance of gaining the government seal of approval than a detergent that actually works.
Then we get to the end of the interview, in which he is actually candid about the goal: the elimination of detergents (meaning the elimination of clean). Davies concedes that this would be the best possible result. And what does he recommend instead? Vinegar and "elbow grease" the old-fashioned phrase for "scrub harder."
Thus spake the government. That's the future as these bureaucrats see it. It's a future of elbow grease, meaning manual labor unassisted by any products of free enterprise like machines and detergents that work.
It's a future in which our clothes are dirty, we have no soap that works to wash our bodies, our dishes are full of gritty film, our floors are grungy, our windows are smudgy, everything more or less stinks like vinegar, our toilets don't work, our trash is hurled in a pile out back, and vast amounts of our time are spent scrubbing things instead of reading, singing, writing, or conversing. It is a future just like the long-ago past, complete with wash tubs, wash boards, and outhouses along with their attendant dirt, disease, and deprivation.
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Geckogm
Posts: 3720
Incept: 2007-06-26
Canyon Lake
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Steelpiston71
Posts: 4853
Incept: 2007-09-05
Michigan
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We make our own laundry detergent, never thought of adding TSP, but in bulk, looks like it would be affordable to add a cup or 2 to each batch.
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"We have resolution authority under Frank/Dodd... How about we USE IT?" Karl Denninger, 10/07/10 on the Dylan Ratigan Show, MSNBC.
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Billy_ray_v
Posts: 1039
Incept: 2010-10-08
east of the rockies
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4.5 lbs box $9.99 at Home Depot (stocked next to paint thinners no Lowes out here) Was dying to try this,...it beat the **** out of my dirty ass kitchen floor and a washer load of enfilthened socks and hoodies. Thanks for the post saw something similar here before,... I knew detergent stopped working a year or two ago and tied it to phosphates so just add the **** back in. I don't use bleach because I wash everything all at once and it reduces clothing life. I am a new man! 
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When a country allows itself to be coerced,it has to suffer the consequences.
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Mo
Posts: 12158
Incept: 2007-06-26
Pa.
Online
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So.....do you add the TSP to the laundry with your regular detergent? Or what?
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Welcome to Pottersville
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Geckogm
Posts: 3720
Incept: 2007-06-26
Canyon Lake
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MO here is the money quote Quote:I pointed out that TSP, which is a natural element, is amazing not because it cleans it needs soap to do its thing but rather because it rinses, whooshing away all dirt, oil, stains, as well as all leftover detergent. Bleach whitens but it ruins fabrics, and that's not good. What is needed is a good rinsing agent that leaves clothes not only perfectly clean but also smelling fantastic. TSP does it, and that's why it has long been an essential ingredient in laundry soap. Can anyone comment on fading when used with dark colors?
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1lumpor2
Posts: 2649
Incept: 2011-05-01
Banned
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Works in the Dishwasher to, 1 TBS per load of dishes with your regular dishwasher soap.
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-- Done
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A-cat
Posts: 111
Incept: 2010-06-10
Online
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Spanktron9
Posts: 2774
Incept: 2009-03-13
Reality.
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So why was TSP or "phosphates" in general removed? I thought it was envrionmental factors. Anyone have the straight poop?
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"Winter is coming." -Motto of House Stark "Mo'lon La'be"- Leonidas "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general" - Mark Rippetoe "Its like Calvinball."-MarvinMartian
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Genesis
Posts: 130722
Incept: 2007-06-26
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It was. Phosphates can cause algae blooms in discharge water from treatment plants.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Bluebird
Posts: 1381
Incept: 2008-05-02
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I remember when TSP was in laundry detergent (at least 25 years ago). Clothes really were so much cleaner, whiter and brighter.
Then a few months ago, TSP was no longer included in dishwasher detergent and dishes were coming out dirty.
But TSP was banned because it created algae issues in water.
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Spanktron9
Posts: 2774
Incept: 2009-03-13
Reality.
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Thanks Gen-
So is it illegal to add on your own, or only to sell it in detergents?
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"Winter is coming." -Motto of House Stark "Mo'lon La'be"- Leonidas "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general" - Mark Rippetoe "Its like Calvinball."-MarvinMartian
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Genesis
Posts: 130722
Incept: 2007-06-26
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It's not illegal to add it on your own as far as I know.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Spanktron9
Posts: 2774
Incept: 2009-03-13
Reality.
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thanks, KD. If the laundry police show up, I'll direct them to Niceville. 
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"Winter is coming." -Motto of House Stark "Mo'lon La'be"- Leonidas "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general" - Mark Rippetoe "Its like Calvinball."-MarvinMartian
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Genesis
Posts: 130722
Incept: 2007-06-26
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Starvingartist
Posts: 3430
Incept: 2011-01-03
Puff The Magic Dragon
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Of course, we use phosphates on our lawns too, which run off into the local waterways. But let's ban them in soaps.
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"The only solution that is mathematically sound is politically impossible. All the should's in the world ain't gonna change that."
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Genesis
Posts: 130722
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Yep. N-P-K are the three numbers. The center one? Phosphorus.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Workerbee
Posts: 1398
Incept: 2009-03-18
* Winter is Coming *
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Don't you ****ing people get it?
It's how they'll spot the non-compliant among us.
You'll stand out with them spankin' bright clean clothes.
They want us all like Pig-Pen
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Prepare for Our Valley Forge *~* Appeal to Heaven *~* ...that those "who having no appeal on earth to right them, they are left to the only remedy in such cases, an appeal to heaven." ~John Locke
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Starvingartist
Posts: 3430
Incept: 2011-01-03
Puff The Magic Dragon
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So when do they ban fertilizers on lawns?
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"The only solution that is mathematically sound is politically impossible. All the should's in the world ain't gonna change that."
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Tickerfan
Posts: 2847
Incept: 2008-01-02
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Don't mean to sound like a conspiracy nut here, but have you tried searching the internet for household cleaning tips generally? The answer to everything--and I mean everything--is white vinegar. Some of the procedures, like cleaning hard water deposits off of a tile shower with vinegar-soaked paper towels, require a full frickin' day--AND THEY DON'T WORK! Where are all of these bogus internet remedies coming from? And where have all of the effective cleaning tips gone? Removed by some environazi troll team?
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Ricka01
Posts: 1214
Incept: 2009-03-05
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I've been using TSP in many laundry loads over the past few months. I thought the price at Home Depot was a ripoff, so I looked today online for an alternative source, and came across something called STPP (Sodium Tripolyphosphate). STPP actually degrades into TSP over time when exposed to moisture. Here's some info about it: http://ths.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/laund..... The article says that STPP is preferred over TSP for laundry because Quote:due to its precipitate formation is not favored for laundry use. Neither cost much, but TSP is cheaper in bulk: http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?g....http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?g....Does anyone know if the precipitates caused by TSP cause problems in washing machines (clothes)?
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01gtb
Posts: 21
Incept: 2011-06-10
Central Florida
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Starvingartist asked "So when do they ban fertilizers on lawns?"
I know this is an old thread. But anyway, there are restrictions in place. A lot of formulas no longer contain phosphorous. A lot of times you will see 10-0-10 in stores instead of 10-10-10 and 16-0-8 instead of 16-4-8. You can still find fertilizers that contain phosphates, but it is becoming more difficult.
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Wis/min
Posts: 5362
Incept: 2009-08-14
On the border
Online
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Quote:A lot of formulas no longer contain phosphorous yep, no phosphorus in lawn care products in WI and MN Also no proof that it has accomplished a damn thing. Quote:Changes in water quality have not been documented at this time Changes in water quality resulting from the law have not been documented at this time. Available phosphorus runoff data from Twin Cities streams are too variable in the years following phosphorus lawn fertilizer restrictions to indicate short-term trends in water quality. http://www.mda.state.mn.us/en/sitecore/c....
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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The sneaky bastards have taken away the convenient source of phosphates sold at the hardware store.  When I first started using this stuff is had a very high concentration of TSP. The reason I know this is because of a prank the chemists played on new guys back when I was in the Navy. They had pure TSP onboard because it's used to adjust boiler water pH. The prank was to have someone hold their hand out palm-up and sprinkle a small amount of TSP on it followed by a single drop of water. The recipient would feel a warm sensation followed very quickly by a painful sensation unless it was immediately washed off. Back when I first started using the brand of TSP pictured above that trick still worked. A few months ago though I noticed that it wasn't as effective as it had been in the past so I tried it again and barely felt anything. That's when I examined the box and noticed a new statement which had not been there before:  Of course even though the product now only contains a small fraction of the active ingredient they didn't lower the price proportionally.
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Wis/min
Posts: 5362
Incept: 2009-08-14
On the border
Online
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