One thing some EU countries do right is to provide school vouchers for the kids, which follow the kid. The vouchers can be used for any accredited school, public or private. It creates a healthy competition and pushes all of the schools to excel and compete for the voucher dollars. We need to adopt this and quit listening to the failed public school administrators who insist that it's the kids fault, or the parents fault, or that they don't have enough money. Just a bunch of sorry excuses for being abject failures.


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story....
"Belgium, by contrast, the money is attached to the kids -- it's a kind of voucher system. Government funds education -- at many different kinds of schools -- but if a school can't attract students, it goes out of business.

Belgian school principal Kaat Vandensavel told us she works hard to impress parents.

She told us, "If we don't offer them what they want for their child, they won't come to our school." She constantly improves the teaching, saying, "You can't afford 10 teachers out of 160 that don't do their work, because the clients will know, and won't come to you again."

"That's normal in Western Europe," Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby told me. "If schools don't perform well, a parent would never be trapped in that school in the same way you could be trapped in the U.S."

Fleeing in large numbers? They make it sound like half the students in the district are jumping ship. In South Bend, it was around 200 out of something like 20,000 students. The average cost if you divide the amount they cite by the number of students is around 25% less than it costs per pupil in the SB school district, which is something like $9,000. Statewide, you're talking 3,200 students out of around 1,000,000 total in Indiana public schools.

If the schools were better, they wouldn't leave to begin with. Mishawaka is directly to the east, has about 16,000 students and while the schools aren't world class, they're hella lot better than most of the ones in South Bend. 26 students from Mishawaka had used the vouchers at the time the linked article below went to press. Why? I would guess that in general, the schools are better here.

Also, the vouchers don't necessarily cover the entire cost of a private school as they're income based.

Quote:

Depending on income, the voucher program offers families up to 90-percent of the level of state tuition support that would have been paid had the student remained part of a public school district. The state pockets the remaining 10-percent.

For families with higher incomes, the state offers a student a grant equal to 50-percent of the tuition support that would have gone to the public schools. The state keeps the difference.

http://www.wndu.com/hometop/headlines/Vo....

No one that we know uses the program but I like it. Parents should be allowed to have an option on where they want their child to receive their education. Witness the family from the article, where the couple are satisfied with the education their son is receiving in the system but feel as though a different school would be a better fit for their daughter.

Again, it's not as though you're talking about some mass exodus, certainly not large enough to threaten the leviathan that is the public school system.

Indiana's also going to a merit-based pay system for teachers and I say good. For every two good/competent teachers, there is one that is a glorified room monitor.

Oddly enough home schooled kids continue to beat the crap out of publicly educated kids in academic tests year after year. And home schooling costs are very low.

Public education exists for two reasons: Free money to unions and to train kids to be good little progressives. Go read up on John Dewy and the other creators of the current school system and you will learn that they intended to use schools to take children away from the beliefs of their parents. As the system fails they double up on protecting their main goals while allowing actual learning to go by the wayside.

Given that I'm nearing 60 and will never receive social security, I'm having a bit of difficulty celebrating still paying to feed, babysit and educate other people's kids in a public or private setting.

If you have kids, be prepared to pay for their education all by yourself.

^^ this, especially since my kid was educated primarily by me, at home, at no cost to any taxpayer.

Government schools, including subsidies to universities, waste more money than the banks have ever stolen.

What people like mrgone don't admit is that almost all parents, including those in the poor class, have aspirations for their kids and want them to be educated. That's motivation, so no government assistance is needed on that score. Additionally, as a kid matures, they can get their own education without parental help, something progessives won't admit either. Homeschoolers prove this concept every day.

The current ed system was forced on taxpayers by state governments, courtesy of the progressives. Read John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of American Education" for an eyeopening look. Those kids who have no motivation to get educated can always dig ditches and pick fruits.

People like mrgone just want to force the world to do what they deem important. The individual is totally unimportant in their view, yet education is the most individualistic of enterprises. No one can MAKE you think if you don't want to; that's what consequences like a life as a ditch digger will do.

I think Mrgone is thread banned. He sent me a PM at 2011-08-30 03:55:40

Mrgone wrote..

Subject: Haha
please, no facts, it disturbs the continuum.

And that's all he wrote. well at least he sticks to what he says, NO FACTS.

..........and ignoring the facts presented to him.

( the facts which do not fit preconceived notions are always to be ignored )

30+ years of facts (failure, specifically) is ignored when it doesn't fit with the lefty agenda.

That's fine over on Daily Kos, but it'll cost you posting access or even an account around here.

30 years? Add 70 for the Russian experience with it.

Well , the libs have had the answer for educational problems in the last 30 years : grab handfuls of money and throw it at anything labeled 'education'.

No reason to change the solution now because it has worked so good so far.

To answer MrGone's question:

Those that don't have motivated parents and don't have motivation themselves will work in the fields or factories or janitorial jobs like the old days.

Good hard manual labor will keep those idle hands busy and out of trouble. I'm betting the lesson learned will motivate them to make sure THEIR kids get a better education. In fact, looking at how most immigrants value education I'm SURE of it.

You are not ENTITLED to a good education. No one "owes" you an education.

P.S.: If you don't educate you kids, look for them to be cleaning Manuel's bathrooms some day.

I was a 70's 80's student and we had 3 or 4 schools, high school, spec ed, voc and problem child. Worked well to make it easier for people who wanted to learn. That has ended and all the schools combined which has caused many problems for my kids. They had my daughter in lower level classes, she never learned anything. This was proven during testing and showed she was placed well below her learning level. After two years of fighting the system, and threads of going to court the school finally placed her where she would actually be pushed to learn. This year she is taking all college level classes and will grad. with all of her gen ed college requirements. If we would have left it alone where would we be? Oh and btw we have to pay for these college classes and books...just and fyi.

Now I do have another daughter (3 years old) that will never learn to speak, eat and so on. The school system came down on my family threatening court possible jail for not sending her to school (early head start). In my opinion it is such a waste of money, not to mention comprimises our daughters health. After fighting with the school district they agreed to put my special daughter into a class by her self, with a teacher and a bus to pick her up and take her home every day. The alternative was to have a teacher in our home 3 hours a day which the school did not want. The rub, after my daughter attends 1 day we can pull her and they have to come to our home to teach her.

I have to agree that public school system, at least in my area, have went down hill and are resting in the toilet. There are not any private schools (for girls) around my neck of the woods, and I have 4 girls. We do have a boys prep school which mostly has our congress and senate sons going there but it is totally private (nice golf course).

"The cost of private education dwarfs what the public school system costs."

No, it does not. In fact, it's usually cheaper.

And MrGone--to answer your first question--I'd say FedEx & UPS do a much better job than USPS. Second, the DC voucher program was considered a major success. Third, I would consider the break up of AT&T a very successful transition to the private industry (from the gov regulated monopoly) Fourth, there are very few instances where govt has given up power to private groups for obvious reasons.

Let me flip this around. Can you provide examples of where a private group took over a public group and did a worse job than the public sector?

I've always been a fan of charter/alternative schools. But I decided to sincerely give the public schools the benefit of the doubt and be as helpful/integrated as possible. I was a PTA officer at my kid's school which is rare for a dad to do. In our PTA's sponsored cub scout pack I was a den leader for several years. I even borrowed a fortune for a mortgage so my kids could go to the highly-touted Fairfax Public County Schools in Virginia. Just a FYI that it's almost certainly the school district with the highest enrollment of children of members of Congress anywhere in the country. Before that we were in the highly touted Chicago Public Schools system which people far/wide have praised for being super-improved. In fact our current US Secretary of Education just came from this "great school district".

Here's what would've happened if I let the status quo rule and I would've just cowtowed to the whims of the system.

1. One of my children would've gotten a horrible start and be hopelessly behind now and functionally illiterate.
2. The other one would most likely be dead now. I'm definitely not exaggerating here.

Where did my kids start getting the help they need both times nearly a decade apart? In the state that has the LOWEST per pupil spending in the entire country. Why? Because the free market forces were in work. We had a real choice for our kids.

Today they're both near adulthood in charter schools. The issues of the past are way in the past and frankly a non-issue now. I really really wanted everything to work well for them in the public school system. If I had to do it all over again I still wish it could've worked in the monopoly system. However I'm now a believer that parents need to have a reasonable cafeteria of options available to get their children an education and good start in life. And most importantly of all I think that children need to be taught progressively and firmly to be self-starters, responsible for their actions, and learn the basics on reading, writing, and arithmetic.

mrgone why do you support the retarded public schools system ? Do you even personally benefit( or abuse your kids depending on your view of public school system) from it like sending your kids to public school for free?

Econ,

You need to reframe your question.

What values do you get if you send your kids to Christian schools?

What values do you get if you send your kids to Catholic schools?

What values do you get if you send your kids to Hebrew schools?

What values do you get if you send your kids to Muslim schools?

Soooooooo, what values do you get if you send your kids to government schools?

If you view teachers as the priesthood and schools as the churches, Mrgone's ambitions become very, very clear.

The historical analogy is the public school system is for today what the Roman Catholic Church was immediately prior to Martin Luther. Mrgone is a friar in that analogy.

Vouchers let the public choose where they want to send their kids....if they CHOOSE to send them to a christian, catholic, demon, government or whatever school, then why should we care....its their CHOICE.

Stop forcing me and my family to your ideals. It doesnt matter what side you are on, I just want my choice on how to teach my children. I also want my tax dollars to support my choice.

And for those that dont have kids...why should they pay? Its not their job to teach my children nor do I want their decision in the matter.

"And for those that dont have kids...why should they pay? Its not their job to teach my children nor do I want their decision in the matter."

A-****in-men to that.

My parents pay close to $15,000 in property tax here in NJ - of which about $10,000 goes to the public school (most of which doesnt even stay in our district thanks to Abbott v. Burke decision...I encourage all to review what implications that decision has... whereby less than 10% of NJ school districts get over 60% of the funding...all bc it is "fair" ... truly mind blowing stuff). My parents have not had a child in a public school in ~13 years.

I have told my parents REPEATEDLY to get the hell out of NJ.

"And for those that dont have kids...why should they pay? Its not their job to teach my children nor do I want their decision in the matter."

A-****in-men to that.

My parents pay close to $15,000 in property tax here in NJ - of which about $10,000 goes to the public school (most of which doesnt even stay in our district thanks to Abbott v. Burke decision...I encourage all to review what implications that decision has... whereby less than 10% of NJ school districts get over 60% of the funding...all bc it is "fair" ... truly mind blowing stuff). My parents have not had a child in a public school in ~13 years.

I have told my parents REPEATEDLY to get the hell out of NJ.

Public education should be FEE FOR SERVICE!

Viperjason wrote..

Stop forcing me and my family to your ideals. It doesnt matter what side you are on, I just want my choice on how to teach my children. I also want my tax dollars to support my choice.

The right solution is to abolish state-funded education entirely and let parents purchase whatever kind of education they can afford or that somebody else voluntarily provides.

MrGone wrote..

Everyone is now on the hook for educating their own kids? Very nice. My model suggests very few will go to school including many of the TF kids. We have times in our history where this was the case so it is a fact, not a "liberal" idea. So now what do we have? A bunch of uneducated folk looking for work or more likely looking for trouble. Great. Here's a job at Dell. Oh you need to know something, sorry your not useful. How about Home Depot? Sorry you can't read or operate a cash register. Thanks but no. So in the end what are "we" supposed to do with all these people who have no education, no skill? That's the real question isn't it?

Those are good questions. My wife is 3rd generation American. Her grandparents came from the Ukraine. When they got here, they worked their asses off because if they didn't, they would starve. They always had the abyss behind them to remind them that if they didn't, they could fall into it. It was motivation enough that if they didn't figure something out, they would starve. Today we're talking away that sense of urgency that the abyss creates. Safety net? Sure, but we've gone way beyond a safety net. We've spent two generations taking away that sense of urgency to take care of yourself. You're right, change it now and it will be anarchy, but I don't think that can be avoided.

Personally, I can't think of a single Government run program that is not dysfunctional and broken. I'm willing to listen.

@Viperjason, I agree with you. I just want a choice of what to do with my tax money. I pay extra today to send my kids to private school. The public schools in my area are on the "No child left behind failure list" (not the private school though). I don't think you should have to pay for others kids to go to school (and I don't think I should either, I would like to direct my tax money to the school that actually educates my kids).

Your property taxes are just like union dues and payroll taxes. If you had to write the check and saw where your money really went, you would be outraged.

Other countries have public school systems. Do they all suck as bad?