Having been a teacher/TA at all levels from elementary to university - I'll pipe in here.

How about some basic math : Let's the govt allocates 8k per student to educate a single student. Figure the average class size is 30 kids = $240k / 9 months = about $27,000 per month.

Now explain to me how, if this were a simple business proposition, how you could NOT make a profit ? Costs : rental of a classroom, purchase of basic textbooks (amortized over many years - not like history or math changes over time) - and a high speed internet connection. Maybe access to a park/playground.

I'd be a rich man & my students would be top-ranked if the govt got the **** out of my way. But EVERYTHING in this society is CORRUPT - from the very bottom to the very top. All of it.

And this is what the unwashed masses want, and what those who can visualize nothing but the status quo (like Mr. G) will only allow (under penalty of death or prison).

I say ****ing let them choke on it.

Just like why no one with an ounce of brains would start a new business in this country, no way am I spending an ounce of my time or effort or money to help them fix all the things THEY ****ing broke.

MY KIDS sit at home at the kitchen table and get their education from their 150+ IQ parents - they spend 15 minutes a day in 'school' and at age 5 & 6 respectively they can read, write, add, subtract, & multiply. And they are supremely happy. I wouldnt let them near a public skool if you put a gun to my head.

And let me add (for those who think homeschoolers need to be 'socialized' - that not a week goes by without some random stranger coming up to either my wife & muself and complimenting us on how polite, well-behaved (and cute - dont forget cute LOL) our kids are. It happens so often it's embarrassing.

Yeah, where do I sign them up for the public schooling I GOT - violence every day, teachers whose egos couldn't stand the smallest of intellectual questioning and proceeding thru seven mind-numbing hours of class at the level of the slowest retard in the room. Oh yeah, those were the days.

NOT.

Do those other countries have as many blacks and Hispanics per capita as the United States? Imagine how good their schools would be if they were private.

Wife and I started homeschooling last year and it was the BEST decision we have made for our children to date. The lack of socialization is a complete myth bolstered by the uneducated the fear mongering bullies that will loose funding for their educational platform.

I work in the educational sector and i think the vouchers are an awesome idea.

I do believe in separation of church and state so using the Gov vouchers(tax payer money) to be paid out to private religious schools does seem like a legal issue that needs to be cleared up. If it has been cleared up then, so be the law.

Arxiv,

I think the "separation of church and state" (which isn't in the Constitution, btw) is addressed by examining the "establishment" and "excessive entanglement" tests the USSC has outlined in dealing with state/church issues.

To have vouchers go to private Christian schools (or any other) you would need to show that it isn't establishing a state religion. If the parents were free to send their kids to the school of their choice, regardless of ideology, the establishment concerns are obliterated.

Excessive entanglement is another. If the state sent the vouchers with tons of strings attached, entanglement is an issue. If the vouchers simply went with the kid, and no questions were asked, entanglement doesn't present a problem.

The Mrgone's of the world attack this idea of ideological neutrality along the lines of, "What if a redneck family sent a child and the state money to a school that taught White Supremacy?" Never mind that they would be A-OK with "Black Power" (multiculturalism) cirricula.

They know they can't win along the lines of keeping vouchers out of Christian schools, so they draw up a wicked strawman (White Supremacy schools), conflate the two, muddy the waters, and declare victory.

I'm serious when I say that vouchers are to public schools what Martin Luther was to the Roman Catholic Church of his era. This is a direct strike to the heart of the PC-social Marxist training ground.

In defense of Mrgone (I can't believe I just typed that), he is justified in his fears that many familes would disregard the education of their children. That's why vouchers are necessary so the families can't take the money and buy dope and Ding Dongs. Public schools would default to the status quo if the parents were not proactive in these affairs.

I searched but I cannot find the link. Someone posted a link on part time private schools for home schooling. (Science lab, sports, etc.) Anyone remember?

Public schools (publically funded):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_scho....

@Eleua: thank you for the info....

Quote of the day:
Vouchers are necessary so the families can't take the money and buy Dope and Ding Dongs....

8 out of 10 best schools in Denmark are private (source 2011 http://www.uvm.dk/~/media/Files/Stat/Fol....

On over 15 percent of the private schools the students score better than you'd expect from the perspective of their a social background, only 5 percent equivalent in public.

Personally I attended 2 public and one private school. First public was hugely better than the first, where I spent half a year learning nothing after transferring. The private school was focused on sports, so it was worse than the first school when looking purely at non-sports subjects. That was 20y ago.

Recently one of the ministers there was under fire for railing at parents who transferred their children to private schools two years prior to doing exactly the same. It's a joke.

So in socialist Denmark things are surely turning towards the worse wrt. public schools.

(my father is a teacher in a little private school there)

Kochevnik wrote..

MY KIDS sit at home at the kitchen table and get their education from their 150+ IQ parents - they spend 15 minutes a day in 'school' and at age 5 & 6 respectively they can read, write, add, subtract, & multiply. And they are supremely happy. I wouldnt let them near a public skool if you put a gun to my head.

And let me add (for those who think homeschoolers need to be 'socialized' - that not a week goes by without some random stranger coming up to either my wife & muself and complimenting us on how polite, well-behaved (and cute - dont forget cute LOL) our kids are. It happens so often it's embarrassing.

Amen! I get the same thing. My son has go to into the office with me one day a week while I work. He has his own 'cube' and does his school work all day. Even people in my office who are getting used to seeing him around can't stop saying how well-mannered, smart and cute (dont forget the cute) he is. Almost everyone in my office has approached me to ask me how hard it is to do what I'm doing. Liberals and conservatives alike have had many difficulties with their own children in public school. While I've only been at this for 4 and a half months, I tell them that it's not hard at all, because my son does all the teaching and learning. He's learning to teach HIMSELF and that means that there will never be anything he can't learn all on his own.

Quote:

I do believe in separation of church and state so using the Gov vouchers(tax payer money) to be paid out to private religious schools does seem like a legal issue that needs to be cleared up. If it has been cleared up then, so be the law.

Oh, baloney. There is no such thing. I wish that stupid phrase could just be edited out of our vernacular. It is absolute bull****. The proper phrase is that there 'shall be no establishment of a state religion.' The proper interpretation of which is and always should be: no public money given to one religion over another; no public money or federal implementation of one religion over another.

If one is 'assigned' public money to be used towards school, that means, 'used towards school' at the discretion of whomever is using it. The state isn't choosing - the recipient of the money is choosing. Therefore, this has no bearing on any establishment of a religion or preference of one religion over another - or no religion whatsoever.

My kids have never seen a day of public school, and that has cost me well over $100K to say. I've been on the BOD of one of those schools.

That being said, my own experience as a child had my worst school experience at a private school. It was a lost year and a half. Granted, this was the 70s.

YMMV, but private schools are generally more responsive to what the parents want, and that makes them inclined to be delivers of a higher quality product.

I've posted on this topic before, and I used to be of Mrgone's opinion, but no longer as I've seen the light. The problem is that Education in the US is a .gov and union monopoly. As Redwolf said: "Public education exists for two reasons: Free money to unions and to train kids to be good little progressives."

But I don't agree with the second part of Mo's statement that has been made by MANY other hypocrites:

"If you have kids, be prepared to pay for their education all by yourself."

Although Mo correctly but inversly exempts himself with:

"Given that I'm nearing 60 and will never receive social security"

So for those who don't have kids and don't want to pay for ANY K-12 education (i.e. vouchers) here is a theoritical question:

I have three kids. My neighbor has none. According to Mo, I'd pay for the entire education of my kids.

My neighbor would pay none.

Twelve years later, my three "investments" are off in the would with paying careers and end up paying the .gov mandated SS and Medicare, etc. TRANSFER PAYMENTS to help folks - including those like my neighbor who didn't invest at all in America's future generation? That is also called having your cake and eating it too.

Don't want to pay any education costs? Fine - then you are no longer entitled to receive any public benefits paid for by publicly earned income taxes. I assume most of those on the forum (myself included) would probably be OK with that, but in the general population I seriously, seriously doubt it.

This is a tangled web.

Quote:

Arxiv,

I think the "separation of church and state" (which isn't in the Constitution, btw) is addressed by examining the "establishment" and "excessive entanglement" tests the USSC has outlined in dealing with state/church issues. To have vouchers go to private Christian schools (or any other) you would need to show that it isn't establishing a state religion. If the parents were free to send their kids to the school of their choice, regardless of ideology, the establishment concerns are obliterated. Excessive entanglement is another. If the state sent the vouchers with tons of strings attached, entanglement is an issue. If the vouchers simply went with the kid, and no questions were asked, entanglement doesn't present a problem.

The Mrgone's of the world attack this idea of ideological neutrality along the lines of, "What if a redneck family sent a child and the state money to a school that taught White Supremacy?" Never mind that they would be A-OK with "Black Power" (multiculturalism) cirricula. They know they can't win along the lines of keeping vouchers out of Christian schools, so they draw up a wicked strawman (White Supremacy schools), conflate the two, muddy the waters, and declare victory.

I'm serious when I say that vouchers are to public schools what Martin Luther was to the Roman Catholic Church of his era. This is a direct strike to the heart of the PC-social Marxist training ground. In defense of Mrgone (I can't believe I just typed that), he is justified in his fears that many familes would disregard the education of their children. That's why vouchers are necessary so the families can't take the money and buy dope and Ding Dongs. Public schools would default to the status quo if the parents were not proactive in these affairs.

Eleua many parents pay for their children to attend religious based colleges or universities when both parents income are based solely on government jobs so in a sense taxpayers are funding religious based education institutions.

Monorailfan wrote..

Twelve years later, my three "investments" are off in the would with paying careers and end up paying the .gov mandated SS and Medicare, etc. TRANSFER PAYMENTS to help folks - including those like my neighbor who didn't invest at all in America's future generation? That is also called having your cake and eating it too.

Don't want to pay any education costs? Fine - then you are no longer entitled to receive any public benefits paid for by publicly earned income taxes. I assume most of those on the forum (myself included) would probably be OK with that, but in the general population I seriously, seriously doubt it.

Great post. Yes, if I were allowed to opt out of the system and keep what they're taking from me, I would opt out. I bet I could do better keeping my money while saving/investing it (just saving it alone would put me ahead). The problem is the treasury knows their ponzi scheme would implode. Also, most of the people who "like their cake and eat it too" will say they "paid in" and that it's "owed to them" (I know the truth... it's just a tax and they can renege at any time). I believe this is called "cognitive dissonance".

;)

And yes, it is a tangled web.... intentionally tangled.

Also it is not only the underachieving public school districts who make themselves look like it is not all about the children. This story was a big deal around the Austin area because Eanes ISD is one of the wealthiest and highest regarded districts in the state of Texas. Think of this area as the school district Mike Dell, Richard Garriott, many IBM and AMD execs children would go to public school. Drew Brees attended Westlake High School in Eanes ISD.

http://www.americansforprosperity.org/sh....

Quote:

"Shame on you" Eanes ISD

Just when you think a government-run school can't do anything to top the last dumb thing you read about, they surprise you. They do something even dumber. It seems this school district in the Austin area is punishing an outstanding teacher for wanting to leave the district less than a month – not the “required” 45 days – before school starts. The district had the opportunity to accept the resignation or to file a complaint which could result in revoking the teachers’ certificate. The district – Eanes ISD – has done the dumb thing. They decided not to allow the teacher out of his contract. Mind you, this is a teacher who has been deemed “outstanding”, taught there for 22 years, and was leaving this rich school district to teach in a economically disadvantaged district. The teacher, Dan Harper, was quoted in the Austin American-Statesman:

"It was not about the money, to be truthful. I always said the last few years of my career I wanted to try and reproduce the program at Westlake with average-income and low-income students," Harper said. "This was a great opportunity to do that."

But Eanes ISD won't let him go without a fight. I didn’t realize that teachers were indentured servants to school districts. Certainly, ISD administrators need time to find a replacement and he had a contract. But after 22 years, one would think that Eanes ISD administrators would find a way to work this out other than file a complaint on the guy.

That same AAS article quoted TEA as saying something equally dumb:

… when teachers leave contracts to take more lucrative offers, she (TEA spokeswoman)said, "we do prosecute these cases."



Frankly, Eanes ISD is recognized because of its outstanding teachers. Trust me, it isn't the administration. We parents and taxpayers appreciate good teachers. Eanes ISD’s student performance far outpaces the district's financial performance. When less than 50% of the funds are being spent in the classroom and there is one non-teaching staff for each teacher, it would make sense that the administration has the resources to find another teacher.



But who would want to work there if that’s how Eanes ISD treats their best teachers?

-- Peggy Venable

Point of order...

I didn't know Mrgone was T-banned. That being said, I retract my references to Mrgone, even the ones like "The Mrgones of the world..."

Fair is fair and I don't think it is proper to hit a defenseless man. If he was available to defend his position, I'd love to keep the debate going, but since my attempts to goad him into engaging the topic are futile, I would like to retract them.

Say what you will about Mrgone (much of it is true), but he does have some points that are worthy of exploration and some of his concerns are not exclusive to him.

Now, any other Lefties want to take up the cause?

Just remembered that I had mrgone on ignore.
Thanks for the reminder

No one answered my question. There are many other countries with public education (compulsory). Do their systems all suck?

No, but most of them don't have the sort of union and "teach everyone to the same level" mentality we do.

Seems many are getting there though.

I'd wager they all have some form of competition/opt-out, otherwise it's only a matter of time before they do suck.

Quote:

No one answered my question. There are many other countries with public education (compulsory). Do their systems all suck?

BIG YES!

Please read Dogs and Demons for a DETAILED description of the failings of Japanese schools...it will SHOCK you. These systems are NOT to teach how to learn but how to MEMORIZE FACTS.

Yeah, these systems are good at making people memorize crap (which is the point, as the school system is designed to keep people in power, not educate) but absolutely horrible at producing real thinkers.

This reflects my experiences dealing with PHd's from China, India, and even here in the U.S. The absolute ROT that's built into government schools is sickeningly evil.

Quote:

No one answered my question. There are many other countries with public education (compulsory). Do their systems all suck?

Interestingly, under the communist regime in Czechoslovakia, which I experienced until the 2rd grade - and start of 3rd grade in Austria - before coming here...it took until I reached the 5th grade in the US before I started learning the math I already knew.

Today, the normal public schools in the Czech Republic are a joke. A gypsy kid tells the teacher to **** off and the teacher is powerless to do anything. If she does scold the student in some way, she (even if a he) will find themselves surrounded on the street by the family and get the crap beat out of them. The school will not stand behind them either...gotta make sure they don't appear "racist".

British schools are a total joke.

And to all you new homeschoolers - kudos, but a comment too - think about what Steph just posted. A 7 yo responsible for teaching himself (with parental encouragement and oversight)...a revolutionary concept today that was absolutely common up to a century ago.

Just ponder that...how you are being deprived of entire areas of competency by government agencies .