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| Iran in forum [GeoPoliticsNews]
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Landshark
Posts: 11659
Incept: 2008-02-07
The Wild West
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Define Jewish.
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"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed..."
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Vitchilo
Posts: 4964
Incept: 2011-04-27
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Quote:To you it is. Are you Jewish? Being jewish and being a zionist are totally different things. You can be zionist without being jewish (see most of congress). You can be jewish without being a zionist. (see Jews against ZIonism and others) Not the same thing at all. But eh, if you want to change definitions of words go right ahead and make a fool of yourself. Anyways. Only a few hours left before the ``August 20`` prediction is wrong. Also, from my new roomate, who's an Egyptian... (he got lots of friends in the middle-east duh)... he says that in Iran's military, everyone is on edge, they think an attack is coming this week... might be Iranian paranoia (who wouldn't be) or real Iranian intelligence... or just Iranian intelligence reading Tickerforums... :)
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We hang the petty thieves and promote the great ones to office.
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Jeffrey_thomason
Posts: 7115
Incept: 2009-03-11
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http://www.khaama.com/iran-behind-coordi....Quote:
A number of Afghan parliament members accused Iran for being involved behind deadly coordinated suicide blasts in western Nimroz province.
Afghan lawmakers said a number of suicide bombers who were detained are Iranian citizens.
The lawmakers on Wednesday urged the Afghan government to negotiate the coordinated suicide blasts with the Iranian embassy in Kabul.
Freshta Amini and Aryan Young Afghan lawmakers said, “Based on our information the suicide bombers are Baloch citizens who came from Iran.”
They said, “Iran is behind the coordinated blasts in Nimroz province since they are looking to prevent the implementation of development projects in this province.”
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"Until we look beyond the throne where the power structure lies, we'll fight amongst ourselves as freedom dies. The only hope for human kind lies in solidarity. The strength in our numbers sets us free."
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Landshark
Posts: 11659
Incept: 2008-02-07
The Wild West
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Quote:Being jewish and being a zionist are totally different things.
You can be zionist without being jewish (see most of congress). You can be jewish without being a zionist. (see Jews against ZIonism and others)
Not the same thing at all. But eh, if you want to change definitions of words go right ahead and make a fool of yourself.
Anyways. Only a few hours left before the ``August 20`` prediction is wrong.
Also, from my new roomate, who's an Egyptian... (he got lots of friends in the middle-east duh)... he says that in Iran's military, everyone is on edge, they think an attack is coming this week... might be Iranian paranoia (who wouldn't be) or real Iranian intelligence... or just Iranian intelligence reading Tickerforums... :) Yep.
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"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed..."
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Bonanza
Posts: 227
Incept: 2009-07-26
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From Wiki: "Zionism is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel..."
Wouldn't it be reasonable to accept Yonatan's assertion that the overwhelming majority of Jews living in the Land of Israel are, in fact, Zionists based on this definition?
Iran's threats against "Zionists" are merely threats against "...supporters of a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel", yet Israel isn't being threatened?
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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
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Loves2learn
Posts: 1212
Incept: 2009-01-28
The free (for now) state of Kansas
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Winner, winner,chicken dinner Bonanza. It's all about semantics. Or mayb anti-semitic if you will:/
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A poor person's farm may produce much food,
but injustice sweeps it away. Proverbs 13:23
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
Henry Kissinger, New York Times, Oct. 28, 1973
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Landshark
Posts: 11659
Incept: 2008-02-07
The Wild West
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Bonanza, Yonatan's assertion is that their is no difference between "Jew" and Zionist. The definition you provided stands in stark contrast to that, does it not? Neuburger wrote..The infamous founder of political Zionism, may his name be cursed, who only discovered his own Jewishness because of anti-Semitism displayed at the Dreyfus trial in France, proposed various solutions to what he called the "Jewish problem." At one point he proposed to resettle the Jews in Uganda. At another he proposed to convert them to Catholicism. He finally hit on the idea of a Judenstaat, an exclusive Jewish state. Thus from its very beginning Zionism was a result of Anti-Semitism and indeed is completely compatible with it, because Zionists and anti-Semites had (and have) a common goal: To bring all Jews from their places of domicile to the Zionist state, thus uprooting Jewish communities that had existed for hundreds and even thousands of years. Loyalty to the Zionist state was substituted for loyalty to G-d, and the state was made into the modern "golden calf". Belief in the Torah and fulfillment of religious obligations in Zionist eyes became a private matter and not a duty for every Jew or for the Jewish people. The Zionists made divine law subject to party or parliamentary votes, and they set their own standards of conduct and ethics. http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/differenc....
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"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed..."
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Jeffrey_thomason
Posts: 7115
Incept: 2009-03-11
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http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.a....Quote:
Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Martin Dempsey, has said on Sunday that Israel and the United States view the Iranian nuclear threat differently.
Speaking to reporters on his arrival to Afghanistan, Dempsey said that the US and Israel have a different interpretation of the same intelligence reports in regards to Iran's nuclear program.
“Israel sees the Iranian threat more seriously than the US sees it, because a nuclear Iran poses a threat to Israel's very existence,” Dempsey said, adding that he and his Israeli counterpart, IDF Chief of Staff Benny Gantz, regularly confer on the issue.
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"Until we look beyond the throne where the power structure lies, we'll fight amongst ourselves as freedom dies. The only hope for human kind lies in solidarity. The strength in our numbers sets us free."
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Landshark
Posts: 11659
Incept: 2008-02-07
The Wild West
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It really is this simple... Iran knows that, even if they had nukes, the minute they lob even one nuke at Israel they are D*O*N*E. Toast in a glass bowl surrounded by radioactive dust.
Our own intelligence estimates that there is no evidence Iran is pursuing nukes. This is public knowledge. The idea of Iran wanting to wipe Israel from the face of the earth is being put forth by politicians and their MSM minions.
But even if Iran does have the ultimate intent of enriching uranium to weapons-grade, it just might be for an insurance policy against a NATO Regime Change Machine that looks increasingly intent on invading and destroying their country, ala Iraq, Libya, and, in a more covert manner, Egypt.
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"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed..."
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Bonanza
Posts: 227
Incept: 2009-07-26
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Landshark, I understood Yonatan to be challenging the Zero Hedge article asserting that "many devout (Israeli) Jews are against Zionism (i.e. they oppose a Jewish nation state in territory defined as the Land of Israel)".
ZH didn't quantify "many", but my understanding from Yonatan was that the overwhelming majority of Jews in the Land of Israel are, in fact, Zionists (under the commonly understood definition of the term) and the non-Zionists are statistically insignificant. So the threats against the "Zionist Regime" is reasonably viewed as a threat to the survival of the Zionist people that elected and supports the "Zionist Regime".
That 'anti-Zionist' Jews exist (predominately outside of Israel) and pro-Zionist Christians exist (predominately in the US) isn't terribly relevant to the threat assessment of the overwhelmingly Zionist population of Jews in Israel. The "Zionist Regime" and the "Jewish population" is essentially a distinction without difference.
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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
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Jeffrey_thomason
Posts: 7115
Incept: 2009-03-11
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"Madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, political parties, nations, and eras it's the rule." ~Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, 1886.
If we could rely on nation-states acting in their rational self-interest 100% of the time, most of the major conflicts of... well ever... would never have happened.
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"Until we look beyond the throne where the power structure lies, we'll fight amongst ourselves as freedom dies. The only hope for human kind lies in solidarity. The strength in our numbers sets us free."
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Bonanza
Posts: 227
Incept: 2009-07-26
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Indeed Jeffrey_thomason. But as LK pointed out, the determination of 'rational self-interest' is heavily influenced by belief systems and culture.
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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
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Landshark
Posts: 11659
Incept: 2008-02-07
The Wild West
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Many patriotic Americans stand against the current regime in America. But because I can't quantify how many, it must be insignificant.
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"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed..."
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Bonanza
Posts: 227
Incept: 2009-07-26
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I believe the point of the ZH article was an assertion that Iran's threatening rhetoric was merely directed against Israel's government. A large percentage of the 'Zionistic' population, be it religious or secular Jews, would seem to have a reasonable basis for their concerns.
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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
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Landshark
Posts: 11659
Incept: 2008-02-07
The Wild West
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Quote:I believe the point of the ZH article was an assertion that Iran's threatening rhetoric... First of all, read what was actually said. Not what Yahoo News is telling you. Read what was actually said. Nobody is doing this. Second, let's just go with "Iran is threatening Israel", just for fun. How much rhetoric have we heard out of North Korea over the last few years? Why do we not have bases and carrier groups surrounding their country? And that's just one example. Quote:A large percentage of the 'Zionistic' population, be it religious or secular Jews, would seem to have a reasonable basis for their concerns. Define a large percentage. Thirdly, if a small nation chooses to poke at various hornets nests surrounding them, and then come crying for help, what business do we have in being their backup? So many people espouse a "live and let live", "no harm no foul" ideology here, but seem to abandon it when it comes down to brass tacks. Don't go lighting matches in other peoples yards and then come screaming that the children are being sacrificed to fire.
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"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed..."
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Bonanza
Posts: 227
Incept: 2009-07-26
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Landshark, do you have a link for "what was actually said"? The link in the ZH article from Associated Press has these highlights: Quote:"The existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to all humanity," Ahmadinejad said.
Ahmadinejad called Israel "a corrupt, anti-human organized minority group standing up to all divine values."
"Today, confronting the existence of the fabricated Zionist regime is in fact protecting the rights and dignity of all human beings," said Ahmadinejad, with a black and white scarf many Palestinians wear around his neck. It is difficult to take seriously that Ahmadinejad is merely referencing the current Israeli government when he speaks of the "Zionist regime" because in his speech in 2005, (also linked in the ZH article) translated by Nazila Fathi in The New York Times Tehran bureau, he said Quote:For over 50 years the world oppressor tried to give legitimacy to the occupying regime and it has taken measures in this direction to stabilize it. If we get through this brief period successfully, the path of eliminating the occupying regime will be easy and down-hill. Those who are sitting in closed rooms cannot decide for the Islamic nation and cannot allow this historical enemy to exist in the heart of the Islamic world. Referencing 50 years of an 'illegitimate regime' suggests more than the current Netanyahu government, it is a reference to the founding of the Jewish state in 1948. What does "cannot allow this historical enemy to exist in the heart of the Islamic world" mean to you? The "Zionist Regime" is clearly a euphemism for the State of Israel.
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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
Reason: cite source
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Vitchilo
Posts: 4964
Incept: 2011-04-27
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And according to Israel's leadership and all the warmongers out there...
Since the regime of Iran is evil, it must be bombed into the stone age... so using the same logic, Russia and China should nuke the US because it's evil. Or you know, the US should invade about 95% of the world since it's all run by dictators.
But eh, it really doesn't matter who's evil or not, as long as they are on our side. Example : China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Bahrain, etc... lots of governments in this world that are our ``allies`` but really are dictatorships or corrupt to the bone but eh, for now, they are our friends so who cares what they do to their population... Fact is, Saudi Arabia is way worse than anything Iran does yet they are our second biggest ally in the middle-east.
Double standards is the rule in geopolitics.
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We hang the petty thieves and promote the great ones to office.
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Bonanza
Posts: 227
Incept: 2009-07-26
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I was attempting to demonstrate that the "threats" discounted in the ZH article posted above could reasonably be construed as directed towards the nation, not just the Israeli government,Vitchilo.
But we can discuss appropriate responses to those threats tomorrow if you would like.
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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
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Yonatan
Posts: 321
Incept: 2010-01-15
Maccabim, Israel
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The word "zionistic" has been made to be a bad thing. In the Jewish faith, however, it is a central tenet that after we were crushed by the Romans and Jerusalem sacked, that at a future date G-d would restore the land that was promised to us by him. We pray for it 3 times a day and end our Pesach seder with it every year. So practically every Jew is zionistic. Bonanza's explanation carries you the rest of the way quite nicely.
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Yonatan
Posts: 321
Incept: 2010-01-15
Maccabim, Israel
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And further to the point, if the Iranian government had a way to defeat the Israeli government without killing any of it's Jewish civilians, within a short time you would be seeing Jews killed in the streets and pogroms in every city. So no matter what word you want to pin on it, they are calling for the destruction of the Jews in the Middle East.
If the muslim nations were to lay down their weapons tomorrow, there would be peace. If Israel were to lay down its weapons tomorrow, we would be slaughtered. Plain simple fact.
Reason: correction
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Vitchilo
Posts: 4964
Incept: 2011-04-27
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Quote:The word "zionistic" has been made to be a bad thing. In the Jewish faith, however, it is a central tenet that after we were crushed by the Romans and Jerusalem sacked, that at a future date G-d would restore the land that was promised to us by him. So tell me, when did God came to this earth and announce to everyone that Israel was now yours?? Did I miss the memo or something? I've never seen that in any history books... I mean, if God would have showed up like that and told everyone that Israel was the jews land I'm pretty sure it would have been the biggest event in the history of the world... Just saying. I'm not saying Israel must disappear but how can jews be zionists if only God will allow it and God has not shown up yet? A little contradictory don't you think? Anyway Israel can kick the butts of everyone in the middle-east at once if they feel like it and they got the backing of the strongest army on earth so I wouldn't worry yet. Anyways. A member of Israel parliament basically confirmed that Bibi's leaked Iranian war plan is legit. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/31710824/Iran%2....Quote:MK Danny Danon, when interviewed on BBC Newshour (program audio file), treated the Iran war document as an authentic government document. So let's recap. August 14 : Belgian journalist says that his NATO sources told him that Israel plans to attack Iran on August 20. August 15 : Bibi Iranian war plan is leaked and makes it across the internet (Guardian, BBC, Haaretz, YNet, etc) August 20 : No attack... (yet) Might be related... might be not.
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We hang the petty thieves and promote the great ones to office.
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Snowmizuh
Posts: 1376
Incept: 2009-03-18
Alabama
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Quote:It really is this simple... Iran knows that, even if they had nukes, the minute they lob even one nuke at Israel they are D*O*N*E. Toast in a glass bowl surrounded by radioactive dust. This presumes the leaders of Iran are playing by the conventional rules of MAD. What if there is another possibility: that these rulers are believers in an apocalyptic eschatology that holds that the next great age for humanity can only be initiated by a great war to eliminate infidels: namely the Jewish state and the Christian (such as it is) West. Their concept of 'peace' is the return of humanity to its natural, just state: Islam. Worldwide caliphate. In other words, by precipitating this war they actually would be bringing about peace in the world. If this is true, then they will use the bomb very soon after they have it. They will do so via their proxies (Hezbollah, etc.), directly (via conventional methods such as ICBM), or some combination of both. By the way, the Iranian people have a wonderful, ancient culture (Persia) and I understand the most do not hold to this particular brand of Islam. If one is interested, I recommend looking up Reza Kahlili. Reza is Iranian double-agent who was in the Revolutionary Guard. There are other corroborating sources as well. http://atimetobetray.com/I think the leaders of Israel see the Iranian leadership as holding the philosophy I just described. Obviously, if faced with such an adversary, Israel has no choice but to engage--and do so before Iran does. Just a few nukes will wipe Israel off the map. I have heard some intelligence folks say that Iran already has 2-10 bombs. They are simply using the time to prepare for the war and perfect their delivery vectors. Once you hit the 20% enrichment threshold, it's not hard to go to weapons-grade level--i.e. most of the heavy lifting is getting to 20%; the rest is cake. Iranians have apparently been present at nuke tests and missile launches in NORK. The speculation is that Iran has been outsourcing the 'big boom' tests to NORK as well as missile tests (e.g. the recent NORK launch failure). (Iran surprisingly is thought to have superior missile tech to NORK). Further speculation is the Fukishima probably delayed a planned nuke test in NORK (for political reasons), but the next one should be imminent. |
Vitchilo
Posts: 4964
Incept: 2011-04-27
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And since when leaders of made up BS to get power and keep it sacrifice themselves for the cause?? Never happened, never will. Quote:most of the heavy lifting is getting to 20% Yeah. After that, it's 60 days of enrichment to weapon grade level with 8000 centrifuges. Thing is, you need a BOATLOAD of 20% enriched uranium (1.5 tons) for even one bomb. Iran just haven't been spinning centrifuges for long enough. They don't have 2-10 bombs. They might have 1-2 worst case scenario.
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We hang the petty thieves and promote the great ones to office.
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Jubber
Posts: 14573
Incept: 2007-07-05
UK
Online
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"Talk in the pit WTI Crude and Gold futures have been rallying on chatter Egypt will back Israel in an air-strike on Iran"
you couldn't make this **** up, ...that the Islamic brotherhood will back Israel,
LOL
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“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
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Genesis
Posts: 131401
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Egypt just might do exactly that.
A nuclear arms race in the Middle East is in NOBODY'S interest.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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