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| Law school: Lots of debt, few jobs in forum [FedUp]
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Goforbroke
Posts: 5350
Incept: 2007-11-30
Just call me 'Comrade'
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Quote: The number of people taking the law-school admission test spiked after the Great Recession hit in 2007. But it has dropped more than 16  percent this year, the largest decline in more than a decade.
Many think the drop is an indication that prospective students have realized that the job market for law-school graduates hasn’t been this bad since the mid-1990s. Others think law schools should be taking steps to stop churning out more graduates than the market can bear while at the same time saddling them with huge debt.
“Things have really collapsed in the last two to three years,” said Peter Koltak, 24, of Upper Arlington, who is a second-year law student at Ohio State University. “Paid summer positions for law-school students have gone from 20 to 30 openings to just two or three in some cases.
“And the number of jobs available for new graduates has dropped exponentially.”
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Petro would like to shift some of the state funding that is currently earmarked to help subsidize the cost of teaching law students to Ohio’s medical schools to help fill a national shortage of doctors. The Association of American Medical Colleges estimates that the U.S. is short 13,700 doctors in all specialties. That number is predicted to hit 63,000 by 2015 and more than double by 2025.
Lawmakers rejected Petro’s recommendation during the last state budget process, but he is considering introducing a similar measure in the future. The state needs to help the medical schools increase their enrollments to bolster Ohio’s prosperity, he said.
The overall employment rate for new law-school graduates across the country was 87.6 percent in 2010, the lowest it has been since 1996, according to the National Association for Law Placement. And only 68 percent of the graduates obtained jobs requiring a law degree; 27 percent of the jobs were temporary, and 11 percent were part time, said James Leipold, the association’s executive director.
“There is likely more bad news to come,” Leipold said, although he disagrees that the U.S. has too many lawyers.
Despite perceptions that lawyers all make six-figure salaries, the national median starting salary for the class of 2010 was $63,000, down almost 13 percent from the previous class. The median salary in Ohio is just below that.
Most new graduates also are still paying off their law-school education, often into middle age, advocates for fewer lawyers said. In the 2009-10 school year, public law-school students averaged $68,827 of debt, and private law-school students $106,249, according to the American Bar Association.
“Many students are gambling the equivalent of a home mortgage on their legal educations,” Dolin said.
- snip -
He said law schools often give students misleading information about employment and starting-salary prospects to entice more students to apply and increase the schools’ rankings. http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/....
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We have met the enemy and it is us. -- Pogo
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Tesla
Posts: 15543
Incept: 2008-04-03
State of Disbelief
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So why does the average lawyer still charge over $200/hour ? It seems to me that a new lawyer could get a lot of business by charging $100/hour.
It's about time that lawyers got taken down a bunch of pegs.
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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams
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Capeman
Posts: 3703
Incept: 2007-07-12
San Diego
Online
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$10/hour is too good for a majority of them.
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"I believe all God's creatures have a soul... except bears, bears are Godless killing machines!" - Steven Colbert
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Mangoelvis
Posts: 1727
Incept: 2009-07-11
Las Vegas, NV
Online
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My second cousin graduates from law school next month. He wants to go into criminal defense. Apparently you can make a decent living in the DUI industry in So Cal. I guess we'll see.
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Evolutionarily speaking, sloths must taste terrible.
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Fraudster
Posts: 4176
Incept: 2011-05-10
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Quote:So why does the average lawyer still charge over $200/hour ? It seems to me that a new lawyer could get a lot of business by charging $100/hour. Tesla, that is so ignorantly WRONG it's not funny. There are so many attorneys that are struggling to earn even $40/hour (before expenses) it's not funny. So please spare me. And before you draw from a few small anecdotes, please think about it before responding. In response to the article in general, when I was in school, if you went to a Top 10 law school you were pretty much guaranteed a high paying job. Those days are gone now. IMO, if you are not going to a Top 15 or so law school, don't bother, unless you don't have to borrow any money. Even then, I would not recommend full freight (of debt) for a Top 10 law school these days.
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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
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Pcaldallas
Posts: 1343
Incept: 2009-03-02
Unicorn Ranch
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This is the best news I've heard in a while.
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"The appearance of law must be upheld, especially when it's being broken." - Boss Tweed, Gangs of New York
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Peterpaul
Posts: 536
Incept: 2008-03-21
Atlanta, GA
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I will graduate from law school (at night, part time, while I work full time in the day) next Spring. The market scares the **** out of me...but I knew this wasn't going to be an easy route. It will be even more difficult given my soon to be $100 k in student loan debt.
That said, I do have a job offer from the firm I work for now. It will pay about $75 plus bonuses to start; however, I am in discussion with them on ways to legally pay me under $65k per year (with the rest hidden through legal but creative expensing, i.e. my phone, car, internet, family' health care, etc. all covered) so that I can qualify for the income based repayment plan and only re-pay 10% of my AGI annually for student loans. My anticipation is to see massive provisions for loan repayment (either interest retroactively applied to principle or something similar) in about 5-10 years. If that doesn't happen it is just continued belt tightening for decades...
There are some things I have learned from the whole process:
1. avoid debt 2. most of law school could be learned by a diligent student on their own, part time in about 4-5 years 3. the bar license is just a license to hustle (in the old fashioned sense, not in the Goldman Sachs/Iceber Slim sense) 4. most of the full-time students (i.e. 25 or so and young, dumb, and full of debt) have wildly unrealistic expectations of future renumeration possibilities
Finally, I have schemed for years to get in to the business of having a $50 an hour legal advice on line - staffed with Indian lawyers with Westlaw or Lexis-Nexis accounts - to offer advice on everything from wills and trusts to corporation forming for the small business to contract review to advice on divorece. So much of this business seems to be handholding for people who could think and write/talk their way out of their problem with just a little encouragement, explanation of the issues in laymen's terms, and advice on what to say, where to research, or how to file certain motions/pleadings.
Anybody got 1 million to throw at my start-up?
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"True, governments can reduce the rate of interest in the short run. They can issue additional paper money. They can open the way to credit expansion by the banks. They can thus create an artificial boom and the appearance of prosperity. But such a boom is bound to collapse soon or late and to bring about a depression.
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Grashopa
Posts: 2626
Incept: 2009-02-03
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Quote: There are so many attorneys that are struggling to earn even $40/hour (before expenses) it's not funny.
Quote:Anybody got 1 million to throw at my start-up? It doesn't sound like you need to go to India. Start hiring all those not fully employed lawyers so we don't have to bitch about: Quote:So why does the average lawyer still charge over $200/hour ?
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Theft is evil
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Peterpaul
Posts: 536
Incept: 2008-03-21
Atlanta, GA
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Actually, I have heard of contract lawyers going for as little as $15 an hour.
As for India, I would have to operate out of the USA because I anticipate that the ABA would come down on the first person offering reasonable advice at an attractive price across the US - the ABA controls the licensing and would come after lawyers participating for practicing in jurisdictions without a license like Thor on an anvil...
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"True, governments can reduce the rate of interest in the short run. They can issue additional paper money. They can open the way to credit expansion by the banks. They can thus create an artificial boom and the appearance of prosperity. But such a boom is bound to collapse soon or late and to bring about a depression.
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Ben
Posts: 6230
Incept: 2009-10-09
The Distant, Glorious, Past
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If I were in the USA, I would learn some trade and specialize in creating unique designs for the top 20%. Custom wood doors, railings, etc. If I lacked that element of creativity, then something that everyone will need to maintain and replace and repair, something that cannot be outsourced.
Law school, for $100k in debt and $15/hr, really doesn't cut it.
That's inflationary, right? /s
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"Why are you going to learn French?" "Because I'm going to France," says Joe. "I'm from the future. You should go to China."
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Rufust445
Posts: 661
Incept: 2007-08-11
Emerald City
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1. The U.S. is 5% of world population, yet it has more lawyers than the rest of the world combined.
2. The U.S. has three lawyers for every two engineers in its population.
3. Japan has eight engineers for every lawyer in its population.
4. There is no "loser pays" clause in the legal system here, though there is one in the British system upon which ours is based, and every other legal system.
5. John Edwards is a douche bag, and representative of many ambulance chasers like him.
Just my $0.02 worth.
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"The stock market isn't bullish, it's bull$hit." -- Alan King
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Raftermanfmj
Posts: 3370
Incept: 2010-09-06
USA
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Quote:There is no "loser pays" clause in the legal system here, though there is one in the British system upon which ours is based, and every other legal system. Yep. And be assured we will have no law like that, anytime soon. I'm also guessing our Bankster population is high vis-a-vis the global average. And our cop population, as well. And our prison population. Our ability to print fiat, and have silly Asians buy our debt enables non-productive types of jobs as well as epic levels of mal-investment. USA! USA! USA!
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I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know. - Epicurus Oderint dum metuant - Caligula & Police State USA
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Tesla
Posts: 15543
Incept: 2008-04-03
State of Disbelief
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OK, fraudster, put up or shut up. Find me an experienced lawyer (5+ years experience, say, in a general law/tort practice with trial experience) in West Chester, PA, for $40/hour...or less.
I'll be waiting - either for a name, or an apology.
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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams
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Raftermanfmj
Posts: 3370
Incept: 2010-09-06
USA
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Quote:OK, fraudster, put up or shut up. Find me an experienced lawyer (5+ years experience, say, in a general law/tort practice with trial experience) in West Chester, PA, for $40/hour...or less.
I'll be waiting - either for a name, or an apology. Clever! Hey, find me a half of beef, grassfed and cut up for under 2.50 per pound. I'll need his/her farm and phone number. Put up or shut up!
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I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know. - Epicurus Oderint dum metuant - Caligula & Police State USA
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Fraudster
Posts: 4176
Incept: 2011-05-10
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Screw that Tesla, you will be getting none of what you ask for. You made a stupid blanket statement and you got called on it. Just shut up.
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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
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Pika-steph
Posts: 54732
Incept: 2007-09-11
Live Free Or Die; US Army Est. 1775
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What an attorney charges the public and what that attorney MAKES are two ENTIRELY different things.
The attorneys in my firm charge $200/hour (mostly corporate clients, not individuals) BUT - their salaries range between $50k and $120k annually. While a decent living, this isn't even remotely comparable to government or banking sector salaries.
As a paralegal, I BILL my services at $90/hour. I MAKE bout $32/hour.
So, what's the difference paying for? Overhead. People have no idea how high the overhead is for a legal practice. First you have Bar dues, ICLE and other required continuing education (for each and every attorney), general office expenses (help, office equipment, rent, etc.), then you have malpractice insurance, and the big one, law book and research subscriptions. Anyone want to venture a guess as to a Westlaw or Lexis Nexis yearly subscription fee?
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Stop the Looting; Start Prosecuting - http://www.FedUpUSA.org/ "The only regulation that really works is failure."--Rick Santelli
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Banditfist
Posts: 722
Incept: 2007-09-20
Huntsville, Alabama
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Why are some law schools (full-time) 2 years....and others 3 years. If you talk to 3 year school attendees, they all know that it is a rouse. The 3rd year is a breeze and nothing more than a money generator for the schools.
My bitch about lawyers is that when I got divorced in Maryland, we had to use a lawyer. There was no conflict. There was no reason why we should not been able to do it ourselves.
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"Are you sure you can't remember?" "I'm sure I can't remember" ~ Ben Bernake 25 Jun 2009
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Fraudster
Posts: 4176
Incept: 2011-05-10
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Steph, if Tesla is going to throw out anecdotes, he an be sure I will throw out mine. In Florida there are quite a few solo practitioners who are barely clearing $50/hour for their work (before overhead and expenses). There are also a ton of contract workers who make like $15-25 an hour. Hardly the life of luxury that Tesla's hyperbole suggests.
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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
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Pika-steph
Posts: 54732
Incept: 2007-09-11
Live Free Or Die; US Army Est. 1775
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No problem, Fraud. Just no name calling.
I've been in the law industry for more than 27 years and I'm used to people's erroneous, blanket assumptions. The few bad apples give us all a bad reputation, and the inner workings of the field are generally not known. People just see that hourly rate charged and think, 'Highway robbery!'
Unfortunately, we also can't do anything about what Bandit mentions. Many states require attorneys for things that could be done in pro per or by a qualified paralegal at half the rate. While these laws were made with 'protection' of the public in mind (there are unqualified morons that prey on such people), and some laws were made by attorneys themselves trying to 'corner the market', the laws are, as usual, fraught with unintended consquences - even for attorneys themselves. In some places with the laws, written by attorneys supposedly for attorneys, they've implemented manage to price themselves right out of a job.
As suggested above, there probably is a remarkable, substantial market out there for anyone who could hang out a shingle advertising $100/hour, but the problem is, any attorney who does that wouldn't be in business long, because they wouldn't even be able to pay for their required Westlaw subscription or malpractice.
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Stop the Looting; Start Prosecuting - http://www.FedUpUSA.org/ "The only regulation that really works is failure."--Rick Santelli
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Fraudster
Posts: 4176
Incept: 2011-05-10
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Quote:because they wouldn't even be able to pay for their required Westlaw subscription or malpractice. Indeed.
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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
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Djloche
Posts: 3280
Incept: 2008-07-07
In the Mountains
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If you want to make $$$ you have to go where the money is. Chase the bubbles on the way up and on the way down. But you can't expect to make serious money from people and areas that don't have any.
morals? please, cut the pretense, you decided to become a lawyer, not a priest!
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"If we wish to be free, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us! Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle?"
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Tesla
Posts: 15543
Incept: 2008-04-03
State of Disbelief
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Quote:if Tesla is going to throw out anecdotes, he an be sure I will throw out mine. Wow - testy, are we ? I've interviewed 7 lawyers over the last 3 years in West Chester, PA - not a one charged under $215 an hour, and most charged over $300/hour. My invitation to you was to find one in MY area that charged what YOU say they charge. Put up or go away. So then you say: Quote:In Florida there are quite a few solo practitioners who are barely clearing $50/hour for their work (before overhead and expenses) So, my offer stands. Find me someone in West Chester, PA who charges $50/hour. My comment is ... CHARGES/BILLS ... not ...CLEARS. A FLORIDA lawyer does me NO good in a PA court. If I have to PAY $215, but you are bitching that you CLEAR less than $50, that's two entirely separate things and you're smart enough to know it. Strawman. Regarding overhead - the overhead of a lawyer is not much different than the overhead of any business. My businesses still have to pay for space, heat, light, taxes, professional tools of the trade, etc. If I want to sell software that runs on Oracle systems, I have to have a copy. If I want to sell software that runs on AIX, HP-UX or other proprietary systems, I have to either buy or find a way to rent time with this equipment. I still need liability insurance - if I roll out an upgrade to a system that screws it all up, not only do I "donate" my time to fix my ****, I also have to be concerned that I may put my client out of business, and thus what I'd get sued for if that happened. Accountants have to buy tax software every year that costs in the tens of thousands...every year. Landscapers have to buy $50k skidsteers and backhoes or rent them for $2k a week just to do business. Lawyers aren't special people that have constraints no other business has...they just think they are special, because they have perverted the law to prevent average intelligent joes from doing their own legal work where appropriate. Think about this - LegalZoom was a revolutionary idea in the legal industry - do-it-yourself legal work - a shot across the bow to the legal profession. Personally, I can't wait until legal work is outsourced the same way that the shysters in CONgress has promoted outsourcing of a lot of my profession. They will deserve every single last drop in revenue.
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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams
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Fraudster
Posts: 4176
Incept: 2011-05-10
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So you want me to do the leg work to find you an affordable attorney? Get real.
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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
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Dogfarm
Posts: 3292
Incept: 2007-11-29
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US lawyers in the middle east bill about $500 USD per hour.
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“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8)
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Arpwatch
Posts: 3051
Incept: 2009-11-06
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