http://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_sta....

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As the shooting death of Trayvon Martin and the failure of authorities to arrest his killer, George Zimmerman, continues to grab headlines, many conservatives and gun rights advocates insist that race has nothing to do with it. Some have also rallied to the defense of Florida’s “stand your ground” law, the self-defense legislation under which Zimmerman was able to avoid arrest. Yet not all stand your ground claims are so successful. Not too far from Sanford, Fla., a black man named John McNeil is serving a life sentence for shooting Brian Epp, a white man who trespassed and attacked him at his home in Georgia, another stand your ground state.

It all began in early 2005, when McNeil and his wife, Anita, hired Brian Epp’s construction company to build a new house in Cobb County, Ga. The McNeils testified that Epp was difficult to work with, which led to heated confrontations. They eventually decided to close on the house early to rid their lives of Epp, whom they found increasingly threatening. At the closing, both parties agreed that Epp would have 10 days to complete the work, after which he would stay away from the property, but he failed to keep up his end of the bargain.

On Dec. 6, 2005, John McNeil’s 15-year-old son, La’Ron, notified his dad over the phone that a man he didn’t recognize was lurking in the backyard. When La’Ron told the man to leave, an argument broke out. McNeil was still on the phone and immediately recognized Epp’s voice. According to La’Ron’s testimony, Epp pointed a folding utility knife at La’Ron’s face and said, “[w]hy don’t you make me leave?” at which point McNeil told his son to go inside and wait while he called 911 and headed home.

According to McNeil’s testimony, when he pulled up to his house, Epp was next door grabbing something from his truck and stuffing it in his pocket. McNeil quickly grabbed his gun from the glove compartment in plain view of Epp who was coming at him “fast.” McNeil jumped out of the car and fired a warning shot at the ground insisting that Epp back off. Instead of retreating, Epp charged at McNeil while reaching for his pocket, so McNeil fired again, this time fatally striking Epp in the head. (Epp was found to have a folding knife in his pocket, although it was shut.)

The McNeils weren’t the only ones who felt threatened by Epp. David Samson and Libby Jones, a white couple who hired Epp to build their home in 2004, testified that they carried a gun as a “precaution” around Epp because of his threatening behavior. According to Jones, Epp nearly hit her when she expressed dissatisfaction with his work at a weekly meeting. The couple even had a lawyer write a letter warning Epp to stay away from their property. Samson testified that after they fired him, Epp would park his car across the street and watch their house, saying “it got to the point where my wife and I were in total fear of this man.”

After a neighbor across the street who witnessed the encounter corroborated McNeil’s account, police determined that it was a case of self-defense and did not charge him in the death. Nevertheless, almost a year later Cobb County District Attorney Patrick Head decided to prosecute McNeil for murder. In 2006, he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

McNeil’s attorney Mark Yurachek told Salon that “DAs throughout the country enjoy that kind of flexibility of deciding who to prosecute, but it’s curious that he took a year to do it.” While he said there’s no way to know what swayed the DA to prosecute, Yurachek revealed that letters, which he obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, were written to the DA’s office demanding that McNeil be charged. “They were mostly emails from people cajoling prosecutors to investigate,” says Yurachek. “One was from Epp’s widow. Others were written anonymously.”

In 2008, McNeil appealed his case to the Georgia Supreme Court with all but one of the seven justices upholding his conviction. The sole dissent came from Chief Justice Leah Ward Sears who argued, “the State failed to disprove John McNeil’s claim of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.” She went on to write:

Even viewed in the light most favorable to the verdict, the evidence was overwhelming in showing that a reasonable person in McNeil’s shoes would have believed that he was subject to an imminent physical attack by an aggressor possessing a knife and that it was necessary to use deadly force to protect himself from serious bodily injury or a forcible felony. Under the facts of this case, it would be unreasonable to require McNeil to wait until Epp succeeded in attacking him, thereby potentially disarming him, getting control of the gun, or stabbing him before he could legally employ deadly force to defend himself. This is not what Georgia law requires.

As a leading gun rights state, Georgia has both a stand your ground law that permits citizens to use deadly force “only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury,” as well as a Castle Doctrine law, which justifies the use of deadly force in defense of one’s home.

Thus far, gun rights advocates such as the NRA and former Cobb County congressional Rep. Newt Gingrich have been silent on McNeil’s conviction, though it’s unclear whether they are aware of the case. The NRA did not immediately return a call seeking comment. Still, Rev. William Barber, president of the North Carolina NAACP State Conference, argues, “The NRA would be screaming about the injustice of his conviction if John had been white and shot a black assailant that came at him on his property armed with a knife.” (McNeil grew up in North Carolina, where the local NAACP chapter, led by Barber, was the first to pick up on his case in Georgia.)

Barber was clear that the NAACP remains firmly against stand your ground laws because “they give cover to those who may engage in racial profiling and racialized violence,” adding that “There is a history and legacy of discriminatory application of the law” that continues to this day. “African-Americans are caught in curious position. On one hand, we fight against stand your ground laws, but once the laws are on the books they aren’t applied to us.”

Civil rights activist Markel Hutchins agrees and has filed a federal lawsuit challenging Georgia’s stand your ground law because the law is not applied equally to African-Americans. He accuses the courts of accepting “the race of a victim as evidence to establish the reasonableness of an individual’s fear in cases of justifiable homicide.”

Meanwhile, Barber argues that McNeil’s treatment stands in stark contrast to that of George Zimmerman, who has been afforded the benefit of the doubt despite his victim being unarmed. “America’s always had a difficult issue dealing with race, so rather than face it when it’s exposed, the tendency by some is to try and dismiss it. But the reality is you do not see this kind of miscarriage of justice when it comes to whites.” He adds, “John’s whole life has been taken away from him. His wife is very ill with cancer and she has lost a husband, his sons have lost a father and society has lost a man that was contributing to his community.”

So are all you TFers that are donating money to Zimmerman going to do the same for McNeil?

Is this story going to get Tickered? A story about a British couple that was murdered did, even though the perpetrator in that case actually went to jail.

Just trying to understand why McNeil isn't getting the love that Zimmerman is here. Note that McNeil killed a man with an actual weapon.

What's your point, Tchoup?

You're joking, right?

All I read here about the Zimmerman/Martin case is that the MSM wants to start a race war, that Zimmerman was acting in self-defense, that Trayvon is a gangster, etc etc.

My point is quite obvious. Very similar circumstances. Except races are reversed. And the man acting in self defense went to jail.

So why doesn't anybody have this guy's back? And yet Zimmerman gets ****ing sympathy for killing an unarmed man?

Seems pretty obvious to me...

No, I'm not joking at all, Tchoup.

Please tell me who in the US "represents" whites the way Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Mike Tyson and the MSM "represent " blacks. Even if whites did get "representation", who in the MSM would give them a fair shake?

I will agree that something seems to stink in the case you cited, but you really suffer from a serious case of cranial-rectal inversion if you don't see the problems with the Zimmerman case. Seriously, take off your race-colored glasses.

Tchoup wrote..

So are all you TFers that are donating money to Zimmerman going to do the same for McNeil?

Bite me, Tchoup. First I've heard of this case, and I hear A LOT of injustice cases. I personally hate persecutors, because they think they're little godlettes.

As a matter of fact, persecutors are mostly more dangerous than actual criminals. Actual criminals I can deal with (think: front sight, front sight, front sight -> center mass), but the little godlettes have the full foaming screaming wrath of the rabid government behind them, and they're a crowd of self-righteous thugs.

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After a neighbor across the street who witnessed the encounter corroborated McNeil’s account, police determined that it was a case of self-defense and did not charge him in the death. Nevertheless, almost a year later Cobb County District Attorney Patrick Head decided to prosecute McNeil for murder. In 2006, he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

Of course I support McNeil. All things aside, if "At the closing, both parties agreed that Epp would have 10 days to complete the work, after which he would stay away from the property" is true, then Epp had no business being anywhere near there.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ga-supreme-co....

Case dismissed.

As we can see @ Wagist.com, little Trayvon should have been finishing up his skittles delivery to little Chaddie. He had no business being where he was.

Case dismissed.

So **** you for insinuating that we're all racists here, you little prick.

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So why doesn't anybody have this guy's back?

We do have his back. Why would you even ask the question after reading everyone's thoughts on the Zimmerman case? What were you thinking we would say?

You want a list of people in the US who represent "whites" the way random, mostly unrespected "names" represent "blacks...."

seriously?

I believe Tchoup is simply looking for consistency in the argument for Martin when its applied to reverse situations... big deal, unless of course you don't think it's ok for a black man to defend himself.

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Just trying to understand why McNeil isn't getting the love that Zimmerman is here. Note that McNeil killed a man with an actual weapon.

A folded knife isn't a weapon.

Yeah, seriously, Tj98. I want you to come up with a list of corresponding entities of the NAACP, the Rainbow Coalition, etc.

Unrespected names? Did you hear AG Holder's comments to and about Al Sharpton.

Seriously, are you really that myopic??

Tchoup, you have McNeil's back? You donate to his defense? Put up or shut up.

[edit] With the Carl England case stand your ground was wrongly used to let a black murder walk. The whole ****ing system is corrupt and only favors the criminal class be they white, black, or green. I hate white criminals as just as much as black criminals, but blacks seem to be fine with their own criminal class.

What's your myopic view? My myopic view is that for "stand your ground" laws to work, they need to work for all.

The McNeil case is disturbing to me and I'm glad it was posted here as I hadn't heard about it before. The guy was at his own home, dealing with someone who had behaved in a threatening manner to him in the past, threatened his son, and rushed him with a knife in his pocket. (unopened, but WAY better than skittles) This guy acting in self defense is sitting in jail? Wow.

I find it laughable to try to compare the basic trust/support/network a typical white person has from the lowest law enforcement professional on up to the NAACP, so I won't try. The NAACP is looking for equality not superiority, when I find an "equal rights for whites" group I'll definitely post it in breaking.

Tchoup, unfortunately this is the first I'm hearing of this case. I would gladly donate to his defense fund if there is one. I could give a rat's ass what color the shooter was as long as it was a good shoot. IMO, from reading this article only, McNeil's shoot was good. If the article is missing information or evidence, then I reserve the right to change my opinion as needed.

Not every case has gotten the national media's attention. The Martin/Zimmerman did...McNeil's did not. It's not fair but that's life.

Are you being deliberately obtuse with your questions or do you just enjoy being a smartass?

Yeah, you do that, Tj98. I won't be holding my breath.

Uppity peasant has it right: Tchoup is "insinuating that we're all racists here". I for one would love to see the law applied equally, whether the victims are black, white, brown or green, or if the perp is black, white, brown or green. It doesn't happen that way, I get that. But the point of the matter is: the Zimmerman case has not been handled in a normal fashion once the race-baiters got involved.

Again, it would be wonderful if justice (and all of us, for that matter) were color blind, but that won't be happening anytime soon. Yes, you are myopic if you cannot see the implications of race in the Zimmerman case.

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The guy was at his own home, dealing with someone who had behaved in a threatening manner to him in the past, threatened his son, and rushed him with a knife in his pocket. (unopened, but WAY better than skittles) This guy acting in self defense is sitting in jail?

A huge difference between the two cases is that Zimmerman was severely injured and you can see the remnants of that from the new booking photo. That gives him a much better self-defense claim than McNeil - who had no injuries and only a folded pocket knife still in the guy's pants as a threat. While McNeil was on his own property and appears to be fully justified in shooting, he was no more justified than Zimmerman. And the biggest difference of all is that the media are trying to convict Zimmerman without a trial by stirring up a lynch mob against him.

If you were consistent, you would be calling for the immediate release of George Zimmerman. The fact that you are not proves that you are a racist.

But I do Jack, and what I find most ironic is that you fail to mention how this post supports your view of the situation... the MSM immediately picks up the story where a black person is killed, MSM alters 911 calls, posts old pics etc. in order to create a stir, yet in the scenario where the dead party is white most of us haven't heard a single word about the story.

No need for color blindness here, just a consistent support of the individual right to protect themselves from aggressors.

The Fine Article wrote..

Thus far, gun rights advocates such as the NRA and former Cobb County congressional Rep. Newt Gingrich have been silent on McNeil’s conviction, though it’s unclear whether they are aware of the case.

Jack wrote..

What's your point, Tchoup?

Insinuating everyone has ulterior motives for ignoring what they never heard of, with the natural exceptions of Al Sharpton, Spike Lee and the president, whose hearts are in the right place.

I absolutely, without a doubt support the individual's right to protect themselves from aggressors.

What I really take offense to is Tchoup's broad attempt to paint Tf'ers as racist. An obscure story is dug up and thrown in our faces. It certainly appears that injustices were suffered by McNeil, but I think Sushihorn has it right. If Tchoup "were consistent [he] would be calling for the immediate release of George Zimmerman."

Wow Sushi - I specifically said "stand your ground" laws should be supported... it seems emotions are running way too high on this issue to discuss here...

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Tchoup is "insinuating that we're all racists here"

. Tchoups would actually have to define racism first. All I see in this case and all I saw in the OJ case was people like Tchoups supporting criminals simply because of the color of their skin. I have never supported anyone in a criminal case on the basis of their skin color. Not because I don't favor my own. Every human being favors their own group. I don't favor white, brow, black, or purple criminals because criminals are evil. What I don't get is why people like Tchoups are OK with criminals as long as they are from their own race.

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Wow Sushi - I specifically said "stand your ground" laws should be supported... it seems emotions are running way too high on this issue to discuss here...

You are correct to react that way. You see that was a PRECISE parody of Tchoup's position on the issue. His schtick is old and I'm sorry you got caught up in it.

The hillarious thing is that I have no racial group axe to grind in either case. I'm not white, black or hispanic. I just despise hypocricy.

Jack I think it depends on where you're at with this story - I did not perceive any "racist accusation" bent to the OP... I saw it to be one individual's attempt to resolve a perceived inconsistency. Given the fact that I pay attention to the news and had heard nothing of the case he found, I could only assume most t'fers hadn't either. (I do get my best news here.)

These situations stir up a myriad of emotions; debating and position taking is counter-productive to real conversation and resolution. i.e. the truthful answer of "wow, I never heard about McNeil" and "how can I donate" would have been a great response.

So... anyone find a link to donate to this guy's legal defense? If the story is accurate I'd really like to see him out of lock-up before his kids are long gone...

Tj, I have seen enough of Tchoup's posts to perceive what I, and others, did.

That said, you are right - McNeil sounds deserving of a legal defense fund. (I do, however, reserve the right to do a bit more research on this. Tchoup's sources have not always been non-partisan.)

You guys managed to dig up an obscure case where a black man murdered a white couple and went to jail.

But not a case that is significantly more relevant to the Zimmerman one.

I have been consistent in my opinion on the Zimmerman/Martin case. I want it to go to trial. I believe there is enough evidence for this to happen. I want to see all the facts on the table, in a trial.

In McNeil's case, he got a trial, and it looks like he unjustly lost. This is too bad.I hope Zimmerman gets a more fair shake.

My hope in posting this is that some of TF (not all of TF) thinks twice before claiming that everyone but themselves is "race baiting" or "trying to start a race war."

My hope is that people stop painting Trayvon as a "thug" because of some minor, detention worthy offenses, as if nobody made a mistake as a kid.

My hope is that people are honestly and truly in favor of justice, whether or not someone looks like a "thug."

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Are you being deliberately obtuse with your questions or do you just enjoy being a smartass?

No. And yes.

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I want you to come up with a list of corresponding entities of the NAACP, the Rainbow Coalition, etc.

More joking, right?

Please lets not pretend that this country wasn't founded by the white man, for the white man. The Civil Rights movement happened 50 years ago. It will be generations before the damage done prior to it can be undone. Thats life.

"Please lets not pretend that this country wasn't founded by the white man, for the white man."

So stop crying and leave back to whatever 3rd world paradise you hailed from. Doesn't seem so tough?