not as big of a deal as you think. both turkish and syrians have agreed it was a mistake and both our out looking for the crew.
btw--the Turkish economy is doing incredibly well and the Turks are enjoying the good life. have many friends who say the place is great fun and tourism is high. i don't think the Turks want to screw that up quite yet and certainly not over internal Syrian dysfunction.
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“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8)
State television says Turkey has called for an extraordinary NATO meeting over the downing of its plane by Syria in international airspace.
TRT television reported Sunday that Turkey has sought the NATO meeting for Tuesday.
Turkey's Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told State TV that Turkey would seek the meeting over article 4 of the NATO charter concerning Friday's incident.
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Report: Wreckage of downed Turkish jet found in Syrian waters (Reuters)
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Turkey files official protest to Syria about shooting down of plane in international airspace
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UN, EU and Arab ambassadors are now in the Turkish Foreign Ministry, discussing with Turkish officials on downed Turkish jet by Syria.
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Al Jazeera: Turkey to ask Nato for help after jet downing incident, crisis escalating very quickly
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Update: Turkey seeks extraordinary NATO meeting under article 4 of charter which governs threats to members' security - @AP
Article 4 of NATO :
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Article 4 The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.
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EU foreign ministers meeting tomorrow on Syria
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An FSA paratrooper who defected from the Syrian Air Force claims that Syrian air defenses would have been unable to shoot down the Turkish plane, and that the plane was shot down by Russian missile batteries found and operated by Russian forces in the area.
I hope it's BS otherwise... uh oh... and if it's true (which they know throught AWACS, they won't say a thing about it... maybe that's why after all Turkey and all have been so quiet... but after all, a F-4 ain't that hard to take down... I doubt they really needed Russians-operated hardware (aka S-300) to do that.
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#Turkey officially informs #Syria it considers shooting down of Turkish fighter jet "a hostile act," FM tells CNN
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USA has given Turkey its full support
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Turkey knows the coordinates of the wreckage of its plane shot down by Syria, 1,300 meters underwater on the seabed in Syrian waters, but has not actually found the aircraft as reported by Turkish media, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said on Sunday.
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There are claims that Turkish jet was testing Syria's Russian-made radar system and Russia asked Damascus to shoot it down.
Riiiiight.
So Tuesday will be important..
So wanna bet a UN/NATO (if Russia blocks it through the UN) no-fly zone is called on Syria within a week?
In other news, Putin will be in Israel on Monday and in Jordan Tuesday... (what would be crazy is if he decided to visit Tartus on Wednesday...)
And 3 Russian warships are heading to Syria this week.
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Al-Assad forces fired on a Turkish-flagged search and rescue plane which rushed into Syrian airspace to locate the downed Turkish jet and its two missing pilots, Western diplomats reveal to Hürriyet Daily News
This information was shared with the ambassadors and defense attachés of the Arab League, European Union and NATO countries during a briefing at the Foreign Ministry yesterday. The Turkish search and rescue plane immediately left Syrian airspace after the shots. Local eyewitnesses reported a second plane leaving the same region over the Mediterranean Sea the afternoon of June 22, which could possibly be this Turkish search and rescue plane. Amid sound and fury over the shooting down of the Turkish jet, there was also another row between Turkey and Syria on the coordination of the search and rescue operation. The Syrian side offered to conduct a joint operation but attached certain conditions.
One of the conditions was that Syria wanted to seize the Turkish jet and take the Turkish pilots for the completion of necessary procedures as they had been in Syrian territorial waters. The Turkish side strongly rejected the idea and informed Syrian forces that Turkey would carry out its own search and rescue operations and would not leave its pilots and jet in the hands of Syria.
Brilliant.
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Hey Bobby, I'm glad you like my posts. They are however, accurate regarding reconnaisance planes, and I make it quite clear that my opinions on the Syrian complex are just that, opinions. When did you last see an U-2 armed? Our Swedish JA-37 Viggen, now decommissioned, could be fitted with recon pods only, leaving the plane with only cannons, and maybe two Sidewinders. Our JAS-39 Gripen can be fitted with the same, omitting weapons other than cannon, if need be. Does that mean that the ratio of recon equipment to weapons is not scalable? Did I claim what you infer that I claim? No. I doubt the Turkish Air Force would need me to tell them that, but they could surely teach you a lesson, buddy boy. As for the Syrian complex, the Iranians have been digging their stuff down for decades, and you assume that the Syrians would not. That is an absolutely incredible underestimation of your enemy's intelligence.
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"Yep - and that ****er didn't want to light either. I had to soak it in gasoline for a full day before that rat bastard thing would combust." - Karl Denninger ""We could not be more ill served if we had some South American tribal witch doctor shaking monkey bones at us. " - Infidel
"An FSA paratrooper who defected from the Syrian Air Force claims that Syrian air defenses would have been unable to shoot down the Turkish plane, and that the plane was shot down by Russian missile batteries found and operated by Russian forces in the area."
First of all, the FSA credibility is on par with the Syrian regime, that is, "there is strong support at zero".
Secondly, the Syrians have quite a variety of Russian SAM systems, and from my info, they've had a number of Pantsir systems since 2009. The Pantsir is capable of shooting down any aircraft with a high degree of success, especially if the unit attains an optical lock, then you are almost surely bye-bye. These systems are easy to operate nowadays, you needn't have Russians do it for you.
Imagine an in-depth air defense, with a tracking radar deep in territory, feeding target data to frontline units that are then only using optical guidance for the shoot-down. That way, even older ZSU's can be quite effective, if within range.
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"Yep - and that ****er didn't want to light either. I had to soak it in gasoline for a full day before that rat bastard thing would combust." - Karl Denninger ""We could not be more ill served if we had some South American tribal witch doctor shaking monkey bones at us. " - Infidel
This F4 must have been made out of the the same material that the Kennedy magic bullet was made from
15 minutes out of Syrian airspace - it then turned round after it was shot to make the 15 minute journey back into Syrian waters
WRAPUP 2-Turkey turns to NATO over Syrian attack
25 Jun 2012 - 01:11 * Turkey accuses Syria of shooting down jet * Summons NATO meeting for Tuesday * Turkish newspaper back Erdogan's stance (Updates casualties, adds oil pipeline attack, paragraphs 9-10) By Jonathon Burch ANKARA, June 25 (Reuters) - Turkey has accused Syria of shooting down one of its military reconnaissance jets in international airspace without warning and summoned a NATO meeting for Tuesday to agree a response to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Turkey's cabinet was due to meet on Monday to discuss Friday's incident, which lent a more threatening international dimension to the 16-month-old uprising against Assad. Britain called the attack over the eastern Mediterranean outrageous and said it stood ready to back strong action in the United Nations. Turkish newspapers welcomed Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's decision to invoke an article in the NATO alliance's founding treaty providing for urgent consultations if a member considered its security interests threatened. "Turkey has moved into action" both Milliyet and Vatan newspapers declared in headlines under the NATO flag. Sabah newspaper columnist Mehmet Barlas said some were calling Friday's attack a Syrian declaration of war. "We already know there is an 'undeclared war' being carried out between Turkey and Syria," he said, citing the presence of the Syrian opposition and Syrian refugees sheltering on Turkish soil. Fierce fighting continued inside Syria, which has a 900 km (550 mile) border with Turkey, with rebel fighters killing dozens of soldiers in the last few days as they fought against army attacks on towns and villages in central, north and eastern Syria in the last several days, according to opposition sources. Syrian tanks and artillery shelled the eastern city of Deir al-Zor, killing at least 20 people in the second day of heavy bombardment in the country's main oil-producing region, opposition activists said. "Regime forces have dismantled their roadblocks from inside of Deir al-Zor after incurring heavy losses from rebels. They have withdrawn from residential areas and are now shelling the city from the outskirts. The victims are mostly civilians," a source at a hospital in Deir al-Zor told Reuters. The official state news agency said "terrorists" abducted a state-appointed head of clerics in Deir al-Zor and blew up an oil pipeline passing through the province. The Syrian Network for Human Rights, an opposition activists' organisation that monitors the crackdown on the 16-month revolt against Assad's rule, said loyalist forces on Sunday killed another 70 people, mostly civilians and soldiers who had tried to defect, elsewhere in the country in shelling, military raids and summary executions in the provinces of Homs, Hama, Idlib, Deraa and suburbs of Damascus. The intensification of the fighting has raised fears in Turkey of a flood of refugees and a slide into ethnic and religious warfare that could envelop the region. Ankara, like the West, is torn between a wish to remove Assad and the fear that any armed intervention could unleash uncontrollable forces. WASHINGTON CONDEMNS ATTACK U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called the attack "brazen and unacceptable" and said Washington would cooperate closely with Ankara to promote a transition in Syria. Spanish government sources said European Union foreign ministers would also discuss the incident at a Luxembourg meeting on Monday. While Turkish newspapers have railed against Assad, Erdogan, not always known for his emotional restraint, has eschewed bellicose rhetoric. The prime minister, who turned against former ally Assad bitterly after he refused his advice to bow to demands for democratic reform, seemed to back away from any suggestion of an armed response. If he sought some kind of retaliation from the NATO meeting set for Tuesday, he could have invoked another article on mutual defence. That he did not suggests the reaction will remain at least for now on the diplomatic stage. The foreign ministry said Turkey knew where the wreckage of the RF-4 Phantom jet lay, 1,300 metres (4,265 feet) under water, but had not yet found it. Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said the search continued for the two crew. He said the jet had been clearly marked as Turkish and dismissed Syria's assertion it had not identified the aircraft, flying low and very fast, before opening fire. [ID:nL5E8HO0II] <^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ For more stories on RUSSIAN VETO Some analysts said the aircraft could have been testing Syria's Russian-supplied radar and air defences, which would be an obstacle to any possible Western armed action. Russia, which along with Iran is Damascus's chief ally, has provided most of Syria's arms and has access to a deep water naval base in the country. Davutoglu said he planned to set out Turkey's case to the U.N. Security Council where Western powers are seeking, against Russian and Chinese opposition, to push through a motion that could allow stronger measures against Assad. Moscow has made clear it would continue to veto such a move, which it fears could undermine its interests in Syria and wreak anarchy. That apparent inevitability forces the focus for any stronger action on NATO. Davutoglu said the jet was unarmed and had been on a solo mission to test domestic radar systems, but acknowledged it had briefly crossed Syrian airspace in the area close to both countries' maritime frontiers 15 minutes before it was hit. "Our plane was shot at a distance of 13 sea miles from Syria's border in international airspace," Davutoglu said. "According to the radar images, our plane lost contact with headquarters after it was hit and because the pilot lost control, it crashed into Syrian waters after making abnormal movements," he said. "Throughout this entire period no warning was made to our plane." As if to underline its military reach, Turkey's military announced that over the last three days it had carried out air strikes in northern Iraq against nine bases for Kurdish militants fighting for greater autonomy in southeastern Turkey.
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Wikipedia : In 1951 Ayn Rand moved from Los Angeles to New York City, where she gathered a group of these admirers around her. This group (jokingly designated "The Collective") included future Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan
"The operative word that almost certainly disqualifies this incident from an Article 5 response is 'attack.' Turkey was engaged in aggressive action along its border with Syria during a particularly tense situation and flew into Syrian airspace," Joyner wrote on Friday, "While shooting down the plane was almost certainly an overreaction - the Assad government has said as much - it's hardly an 'attack.'"
Additionally, Joyner said, the article demands response "to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."
"Given that the incident is already contained - that is, not likely to be followed by any sort of follow-on action by Syria absent further provocation - said security already exists.
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In Soviet Russia, the government regulates the banks.
'I'm glad you like my posts. They are however, accurate regarding reconnaisance planes, and I make it quite clear that my opinions on the Syrian complex are just that, opinions. When did you last see an U-2 armed? Our Swedish JA-37 Viggen, '
It appears that several AFs disagree with your POV.
RF-4Es are often armed. The Greek AF and the IDF armed theirs. And others,too. Unarmed recon happens when you don't expect an air threat.
8Jan73
Perhaps you can tell us about Sweeden's air combat record?
bob
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"It was the money.You Americans, you believe money is power.""Belief, is power."
Al-Assad forces fired on a Turkish-flagged search and rescue plane which rushed into Syrian airspace to locate the downed Turkish jet and its two missing pilots, Western diplomats reveal to Hürriyet Daily News
"Until we look beyond the throne where the power structure lies, we'll fight amongst ourselves as freedom dies. The only hope for human kind lies in solidarity. The strength in our numbers sets us free."
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
"The Spinning Cyclone Of Deflation Is Fueled By Deficit Spending. An efficient asset destroying storm powered by the printing press". - Me
When the Nazi's broke every law when coming to power, people in later years were asked, how were they allowed to do it? The answer was easy: They Simply Did It.
Turkey not to invoke Art. 5, NATO war in Syria as unlikely as ever
And there's some reports from the FSA that Assad has loaded chemical weapons into lots of Scuds. The FSA doesn't know if it'll be used against them or Israel or Turkey or at all...
I know the source is shaky at best, but me thinks Assad just did this ``in case`` NATO decided to attack Syria...
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Syrian civilians flee their Damascus homes due to continuous government shelling (DPA)
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EU ministers to condemn Syria's downing of Turkish military jet (AP)
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Syria says there is no hostility toward Turkey three days after shooting down Turkish plane (AP)
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Turkey government spokesman says country will protect itself within international law (Reuters)
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Turkish deputy PM re Turkish jet: We have no intention to fight anyone. We don't have such a claim. It is not right to make warmongering.
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The Dutch FM says the EU will condemn Syria's downing of a Turkish jet, but will not support military intervention in Syria.
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Turkish deputy PM: Legitimate self-defense, proportionate retaliation, int'l sanctions are among steps Turkey may take [against Syria]
Proportionate retaliation? Shooting down one Syrian jet? Destroying anti-air sites in Syria?
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Turkey's deputy PM: Syrian forces opened fire on a 2nd Turkish plane that was searching for the wreckage of the earlier shot jet.
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Turkish deputy PM edits his earlier remarks that Nato Art. 5 was invoked. He says only Art. 4 is invoked and NATO will meet tomorrow morning
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Syria issued diplomatic note to Turkey, saying that Turkish jet was hit 1-2 km off the coast to "defy attack on Syria's sovereignty."
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Instead, the operative word that almost certainly disqualifies this incident from an Article 5 response is "attack." Turkey was engaged in aggressive action along its border with Syria during a particularly tense situation and flew into Syrian airspace. While shooting down the plane was almost certainly an overreaction--the Assad government has said as much--it's hardly an "attack."
Ultimately, like the "high crimes and misdemeanor" threshold for impeachment set forth by the US Constitution, it's a judgment call. In the former case, the House of Representatives makes the call; in the latter, it's the North Atlantic Council.
But it's virtually inconceivable that the NAC would deem this to be a qualifying "attack."
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"Until we look beyond the throne where the power structure lies, we'll fight amongst ourselves as freedom dies. The only hope for human kind lies in solidarity. The strength in our numbers sets us free."
Unfortunately, a number of people on this thread display a severe lack of reading comprehension, and so a lesson is forthcoming. Here's my sentence which has caused a number of irritatingly stupid replies:
"As for arming reconnaisance planes, you don't do that if they need extra speed for the mission at hand, or if they carry cameras and other interesting stuff on their weapons pylons."
I make the claim that recon planes are not always armed, that it depends on the mission at hand.
This is met with stupid responses to the effect of "you said recon planes are never armed". I never said they were *never* armed. I said they can be unarmed for various reasons (speed or various recon equipment on the weapon pylons), or only carry cannon ammo. I pointed to various examples, such as our own combat aircraft, the American U-2. We might also add the Russian Mig-25 and subsequent Mig-31, the world's fastest interceptor. Its roles are long-range high-altitude interception and reconnaisance operations. It has violated the airspace of many nations, far above what SAM's can reach, and much too fast for any fighters to catch it. Usually did so unarmed when the mission was intended to be a recon run.
Really, any further arguments about what I wrote, when it is quite clearly spelled out, not only by the first post, and also in a few subsequent posts of mine, is just so unneccessary. Actually, I'm just going to declare myself winner of this non-argument and put any hostile repliers on the "Ignore"-list.
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"Yep - and that ****er didn't want to light either. I had to soak it in gasoline for a full day before that rat bastard thing would combust." - Karl Denninger ""We could not be more ill served if we had some South American tribal witch doctor shaking monkey bones at us. " - Infidel
Regarding the Swedish air force combat record, which some poster brought up, it has not seen much combat, but some in the service of the UN, when 4 Tunnan defeated the entire airforce of some African nation, have forgotten which one. Not that great a feat. Our air force used to be the third largest in the world, I believe it was during the 50's and 60's. Our aircraft back then were top notch, and we could single-handedly stop an all-out Soviet air attack against Norway and Great Britain. The very first run would result in so many losses that a second Soviet attempt would not be possible, at least not over our airspace.
Oh, and our JAS-39 Gripen flew recon missions in Libya (unfortunately), and when a Gripen is equipped for that, it usually carries recon equipment on some pylons, and extra fuel tanks on some, probably the only armament were the standard Sidewinders on the wingtips and cannon ammo. (None of our aircraft suffered any mysterious "mechnical breakdowns", such as the American F-15 did, might I add but not to gloat, just a response to a previos poster.)
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"Yep - and that ****er didn't want to light either. I had to soak it in gasoline for a full day before that rat bastard thing would combust." - Karl Denninger ""We could not be more ill served if we had some South American tribal witch doctor shaking monkey bones at us. " - Infidel
NATO avoids suggesting retaliation for Syria's downing of Turkish jet; Turkey warns any Syrian forces nearing border to be deemed a threat.
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Turkish news agency: A convoy of dozens of long Turkish military vehicles; loaded with tanks, cannons are being deployed to Turkish-Syrian border
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Long convoy of Turkish military vehicles from Diyarbakir are currently being deployed to Turkish-Syrian border
Meh all this means nothing in the end...just that if Syrian troops are dumb enough to come close to Turkish border, they gonna die... all posturing.
Thing is, the refugees are probably gonna flood the Turkish border now... and if the Syrian army is dumb enough to follow them... they'll meet a meat grinder.
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
On 22 June 2012, at 11:58 local time, a Turkish RF-4 type military aircraft was shot down by Syrian forces While flying solo and without arms 13 NM off the coast of Syria in international airspace at an altitude of 7400 feet.
The precise coordinates of the incident are 35 48.22N - 35 32.21E. The aircraft did not display any hostile attitude or maneuver and was flying with its identification systems open. The shooting came Without any prior Warning. After receiving a deadly blow the aircraft diverted towards the Syrian coast and crashed into the sea at 8 NM-off the coast of Latakia, precisely at the coordinates 35 48.26N - 35 37.59E.
In fact, both Turkish and Syrian radar and radio records testify that our aircraft was shot at the international airspace. Third parties’ radar records would substantiate these facts as well. Furthermore, the captured radio communication among Syrian ' authorities clearly demonstrates that the Syrian units were fully aware of the circumstances and the fact that the aircraft belonged to Turkey.
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"Until we look beyond the throne where the power structure lies, we'll fight amongst ourselves as freedom dies. The only hope for human kind lies in solidarity. The strength in our numbers sets us free."
'Our air force used to be the third largest in the world, I believe it was during the 50's and 60's. Our aircraft back then were top notch, and we could single-handedly stop an all-out Soviet air attack against Norway and Great Britain. The very first run would result in so many losses that a second Soviet attempt would not be possible, at least not over our airspace.'
Got it.
Swedish AF. 3rd largest in the world. You go girl.
Carry on.
bob
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"It was the money.You Americans, you believe money is power.""Belief, is power."
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. USSC Justice Louis Brandeis We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. USSC Justice Louis Brandeis
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