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User Info One Turkish F-4 shot down over Syria in forum [NotSoBreakingGeo]
Videopro
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RT quoting a contributor why the plane was where it was:

Quote:
The jet was unlikely to be carrying out a simple reconnaissance mission, but was probably a provocative probe to test the Syrian security initiative and ability to protect its borders, believes author and academic Colin S. Cavell. Being a NATO member, Turkey can count on the alliance's support if it comes under attack, he says.


http://www.rt.com/news/turkish-plane-erd....

Or in another words: Turkey as proxy is doing the 'technical' work of the major powers in the region to establish the details of the current air defense capability of Syria.

Preparatory housekeeping.

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Genesis
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Here it comes...

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Mo
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I heard stories from American veterans about the Turkish units fighting in the Korean war: let's just say that the Chinese never attacked that part of the defensive line twice.

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Clintb350
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There was a MASH episode about Turkish units in Korea along the same theme...
Jeffrey_thomason
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Ever watch a Black Swan being born?

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Bjonsson
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Quote:
Turkey as proxy is doing the 'technical' work of the major powers in the region to establish the details of the current air defense capability of Syria.

Probably a good speculation. To prevent being blown up by radiation-seeking anti-air defense missiles, modern air defense systems will leave their radars OFF until they have detected a potential threat through other means. Then it will flash their radars on, then acquire the target, then flash the radar back OFF to keep the air defense radar safe from attack.

Perhaps the F4 was skirting the fringes of Syrian airspace in an attempt to lure some of them to turn their radars on, in hopes of collecting the signal intelligence for future planning purposes?
Landshark
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Quote:
Syrian military says it downed Turkish fighter jet
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-e....

The Syrian military has said it shot down a Turkish plane "flying in airspace over Syrian waters", according to state-run news agency Sana.

"[The jet] was dealt with in accordance with the laws that govern such situations," a military spokesman said.

Turkey had earlier said it believed that one of its F-4 fighter jets had been shot down by Syrian forces.

A search for the two crew members is under way, involving Turkish and Syrian coast guard ships.

The F-4 Phantom disappeared over the Mediterranean, south-west of Turkey's Hatay province, near the Syrian coast.

The Turkish military said it lost radio contact with the F-4 while it was flying over Hatay, about 90 minutes after it took off from Erhac airbase in the province of Malatya, to the north-west.

A Syrian military spokesman told Sana that an "unidentified target" had broached Syrian airspace from a westerly direction at 11:40 local time (08:40 GMT) on Friday.

The target was flying at high speed and at low altitude, the spokesman said.

Anti-aircraft defences had hit the plane with artillery, bringing it down in the sea off the coast of Latakia province, 10km (six miles) from the village of Um al-Tuyour, he added.

"It later became clear the target was a Turkish military plane which had entered our airspace," he continued.
'Decisive response'

Earlier on Friday evening, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan held a two-hour emergency meeting with his interior, defence and foreign ministers and the Chief of the General Staff, Gen Necdet Ozel.

Mr Erdogan's office said that Turkey would respond decisively once all the circumstances were established.

Given the breakdown in relations between the two countries over the Syrian conflict, this incident has the potential to provoke a serious crisis, the BBC's Jonathan Head in Istanbul reports.

Much will depend on whether or not the Turkish pilots have survived, our correspondent says.

If not, public anger might push the government into some kind of punitive action against Syria, he adds.

Relations between Nato-member Turkey and Syria, once close allies, have deteriorated sharply since the uprising against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011.

Tens of thousands of Syrian refugees have fled the violence across the border into Turkey.
Aleppo violence

Inside Syria, the violence continued on Thursday with state media reporting that "armed terrorist groups" had abducted and massacred 25 villagers in Aleppo province.

Activists said that rebels had shot dead 26 government supporters who were believed to be militiamen.

In Aleppo city, activists said a number of people died when security forces opened fire on a demonstration after Friday prayers.

Meanwhile, international envoy Kofi Annan has said it is time for the world to exert greater pressure to help bring the violence in Syria to an end.

Mr Annan called for Iran to be involved in attempts to end the violence, a proposal put forward by Russia but rejected by the US.

In a separate development, the BBC has learned that UK government officials have decided to prevent the head of the Syrian Olympic Committee, Gen Mowaffak Joumaa, from travelling to London for the Games.

The visa ban is believed to be linked to his relationship to President Bashar al-Assad's government.

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Snowmizuh
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Quote:
buh bye Damascus


No kidding. I don't think this one has been fulfilled.

Isaiah 17:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts.

Jeremiah 49:23-27
King James Version (KJV)
23 Concerning Damascus. Hamath is confounded, and Arpad: for they have heard evil tidings: they are fainthearted; there is sorrow on the sea; it cannot be quiet.

24 Damascus is waxed feeble, and turneth herself to flee, and fear hath seized on her: anguish and sorrows have taken her, as a woman in travail.

25 How is the city of praise not left, the city of my joy!

26 Therefore her young men shall fall in her streets, and all the men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the Lord of hosts.

27 And I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus, and it shall consume the palaces of Benhadad.

Landshark
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Snow, I agree. Interesting, because I've spent a good part of my lifetime wondering how the scenario described in that scripture might unfold, and this situation might definitely be the trigger, or one of a series of events, which leads to that.

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Vitchilo
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So it's morning in Turkey...

- Pilots still not found. Search operations still going on...

- The plane was a RF-4E, unarmed, a reconnaissance plane. (this is from Turkish TV)

- Turkish analyst said that Turkey wouldn't use a plane to scout Syrian air defenses, they would use drones or modern jets to do so. (this is from Turkish TV)

The consensus is that Turkey won't do much until the plane is found so they can know exactly where it was when it was shot down with the black box... if it was outside of Syrian territory, **** gonna get real.

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Cashncarry
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Quote:
- The plane was a RF-4E, unarmed, a reconnaissance plane

Assuming is was similarly equipped as the "Wild Weasel" F-4E's the US used a while back:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Weasel

Quote:
In brief, the task of a Wild Weasel aircraft is to bait enemy anti-aircraft defenses into targeting it with their radars, whereupon the radar waves are traced back to their source allowing the Weasel or its teammates to precisely target it for destruction. A simple analogy is playing the game of "flashlight tag" in the dark; a flashlight is usually the only reliable means of identifying someone in order to "tag" (destroy) them, but the light immediately renders the bearer able to be identified and attacked as well. The result is a hectic game of cat-and-mouse in which the radar "flashlights" are rapidly cycled on and off in an attempt to identify and kill the target before the target is able to home in on the emitted radar "light" and destroy the site.


It would seem the Turks don't have the same kind of fancy jamming technology that the Israelis have.


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Bjonsson
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I'd wager a guess that the Turks probably do have jamming technology that is mostly on par with the Israelis. But in order to jam a radar you first need to detect the frequency ranges it operates in so you can spot jam it. That's what scouting missions like this are for, they locate the positions and frequencies of enemy radar, and collect this data for potential future attack planning. But to collect the data, you need to "bait" the radar operator into lighting up his radar. That is why this kind of work is very risky.

It's a similar mission to the one that the P-3 Orion was doing off the coast of China when the Chinese fighter pilot clipped its wing and forced it to land. The military powers are always poking and prodding each others' stuff.

When the Israelis made their strike on the Syrian nuclear complex, the attack was most likely preceded by scores of missions similar to the one that this Turkish jet was performing. When the "real" assault took place, the Israelis already had the signal intelligence in hand so they could put together a jamming or electronic suppression plan that would open up a corridor for the actual strike aircraft.

Search
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Quote:
The consensus is that Turkey won't do much until the plane is found so they can know exactly where it was when it was shot down with the black box... if it was outside of Syrian territory, **** gonna get real.


RF-4E don't bear a black box.
Asimov
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With radar, they know exactly where it broke up and who's territory it was in when it happened. No need for a black box.

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Dakine2004
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I'm so proud of our internet experts...
Asimov
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Dakine: You can bet there were US military assets that saw it happen.

Can I prove it? No. I'm just an internet expert. :)

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If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Bobby
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The Syrian AD( from Russia) has pretty long legs. This may not have happened over Syria Air.

As I said, Turkey F4s have had some major mods. Done by You know who.
I cannot speak for the Turks on this subject, but my 1st mod would be to arm the unarmed plane.

bob

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Clintb350
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"You know who" would be the Isreali's? They have had lots of F-4s, including F-4Es, in the past...
Kamath
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"When the Israelis made their strike on the Syrian nuclear complex, the attack was most likely preceded by scores of missions similar to the one that this Turkish jet was performing. When the "real" assault took place, the Israelis already had the signal intelligence in hand so they could put together a jamming or electronic suppression plan that would open up a corridor for the actual strike aircraft."

I don't believe that there was anything of significance in that alledged "Syrian nuclear complex". I believe it was done to coax the Israelis into an attack. The Syrians, as the Iranians, would be extremely unlikely to place such facilities above ground. That's why they didn't fire back.

When you attempt to jam radar or radio or whatever, the jamming source bearing is also clearly identified. It is an easy task of triangulating and achieving a fairly exact jammer location with a few radar receivers in passive mode.

Then you transmit that information to anti-air assets that do not rely on radar locks to engage, provided they are in range, which they of course may not be, IR, laser or optical laser-riding guidance has a shorter engagement range.

A properly constructed in-depth air defense grid will use a combination of active and passive radars deep inside friendly territory, and use a wide variety of AA-systems.

My conclusion is quite simply that nothing of significance was hit in the raid in Syria in 2007, and regarding this incident, it is very likely that all sides already know exactly where the aircraft was when it was engaged and shot down. My guess is that the aircraft was deliberately violating Syrian airspace.

But then again, these days I'm just an internet expert. :)

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Kamath
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As for arming reconnaisance planes, you don't do that if they need extra speed for the mission at hand, or if they carry cameras and other interesting stuff on their weapons pylons.

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"Yep - and that ****er didn't want to light either. I had to soak it in gasoline for a full day before that rat bastard thing would combust." - Karl Denninger
""We could not be more ill served if we had some South American tribal witch doctor shaking monkey bones at us. "
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Vitchilo
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Quote:
Turkish foreign minister Davutoglu will make a statement on Sunday at 10:30 local time on state TV re downed Turkish jet.


Quote:
Turkish PM Erdogan is currently meeting with Turkish FM Davutoglu as part of final consultations in response to Syria jet shooting.


Quote:
Turkish Foreign Ministry says two Turkish pilots are still missing despite 28-hour rescue efforts.


Quote:
Turkish Prime Ministry has started second security summit to discuss downed Turkish plane by Syrian army with army commanders.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ankara-....
Quote:
Ankara tries to manage crisis with Syria over plane



The Turkish reconnaissance plane, which took off from Malatya air base (where recently a NATO radar was based as a part of the Missile Shield System), seemed to be on an intelligence mission in the east Mediterranean. President Abdullah Gül on June 23 said the Turkish plane might have violated Syrian air space by mistake because of its high speed. That is why Turkey is trying not to escalate the scandal by making a statement blaming Syria and not immediately calling NATO for joint action.

The opposition parties are well aware of that. Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu, the leader of the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) has said there were a number of questions to ask to the government but Turkey should act in calm and try to solve the crisis through diplomatic means.

IMO Turkey won't do squat.

Update :
Quote:
Breaking: Turkish PM Erdogan invites all major political party' heads for a meeting to be held tomorrow.

....

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Bobby
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'I don't believe that there was anything of significance in that alledged "Syrian nuclear complex". '
I am so glad for your on the ground report.

'As for arming reconnaisance planes, you don't do that if they need extra speed for the mission at hand, or if they carry cameras and other interesting stuff on their weapons pylons.'
What would the Turkish AF do without you.

bob

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Bobby
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vermont
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'As for arming reconnaisance planes, you don't do that if they need extra speed for the mission at hand, or if they carry cameras and other interesting stuff on their weapons pylons.'

8Jan73

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Vitchilo
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Ömer Çelik Vice Chairman of Ak Party in Charge of Foreign affairs, MP :
Quote:
All the data and results will be shared with the public, starting with the political parties.

Quote:
Rest assured, Turkey has a clear+comprehensive road map. This road map was drawn right after the incident in a meeting chaired by PM Erdogan

Quote:
A new stage has been reached with this incident. But now all our priorities lay with finding out about our pilots

Quote:
By shooting down the Turkish plane, Syria has attacked the int community, int law, countries of the region, int legitimacy and NATO.


Weird that all the warmongers in Washington DC are quiet on this... usually they are warmongering about the slightest of things... now not a word.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Grody
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Quote:
usually they are warmongering about the slightest of things
True but only if the war is NOT against the Communists.

For example, mad dog crazy North Korea, is preparing another nuclear bomb blast right now, to go along with the nuclear bomb they exploded in 2009.

Any "warmongering" over this?

Not on your life.

You see these are Communist nuclear bombs, so NO PROBLEM!
April 11, 2012 wrote..
Recent satellite pictures reveal that the regime of Kim Jong Un is preparing for an underground nuclear bomb blast,
Quote:
On May 25, 2009, North Korea conducted another nuclear test, which is believed to have been the cause of a magnitude 4.7 seismic event.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea....

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