I don't know if this point has already been made, but I thought this immediately upon hearing of the farcical ruling by the USSC:

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If Congress can constitutionally create a mandate for individuals to purchase healthcare, then Congress can create a mandate for individuals to purchase financial securities. Which — given the fiscal cliff that we are about to run off, and the reality that more and more sovereigns are dumping dollars and treasuries — could well be a useful weapon in keeping the Treasury’s borrowing costs low and the bread and circuses flowing.

One day, Atlas may shrug. Until that day, Congress just acquired a powerful new funding tool.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post....

This is why you folks expecting collapse to happen this year are wrong IMO. There are still things the Government can do, and money that can be sequestered. 2016 (EDIT: or thereabouts) is my date. By then every last crumb will have been eaten and there will be nowhere left to hide. Until then, things are just going to continue to get harder and more oppressive, and then "IT" will happen.

Incidentally, the precedent that is now set by the Supreme Court is by far the most dangerous development that will come from it. Expect to be compelled to do, or be forced to take part in, all kind of odious things now.

Breaking News: In light of today's SCOTUS decision, Congress today passed a mandate that ALL persons in the US, including citizens, visitors, and "undocumented" border crossers 'who are only looking to better their lives (and to sell drugs or rob actual US citizens)' will star in the production of one midget transvestite pornography tape, and post it to www.WhiteHouse.com by the end of the calendar year, or you will be required to pay an additional "special assessment" 'porn video tax' on your 2012 Federal Incom Tax returns.

(Actually, many folks probably wouldn't find that too "odious"...but make them recite the Constitution?? Welll, , , , )

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2016 is my date.

I've come to the opinion that anyone who puts an actual number on it is like the crazy person preaching in the back of a Greyhound bus.

Actually I think 2015-2017. But suffice it to say, I don't think it is going to happen this year or next.

Incidentally, that should be good enough to get Obama a second term.

How about putting a standard deviation on that date, and making it an exact calendar date as your prediction. I'd suggest February 23, 2017 as the "day" with a standard deviation of 16 months. That means we're over 99% likely it would be between Feb 2013 and Feb 2021 when we experience "IT". And frankly I'm not convinced that "IT" will be the real meltdown you all fear. What I think "IT" will be is a slow moving crash over a period of 6-8 weeks in both the bond/stock markets that'll wipe out about 70%+ of the numerical majority of portfolios in the 100K to 100M range. At that point some sane heads might actually prevail and turn our country on the right course where the treasury bonds market is forced to take a real hit and we have some sort of "jubilee" where we then move forward as a country that doesn't tolerate the FSA and lever-up crap that has destroyed our solvency and stability.

I hope we breach the debt ceiling, raise taxes by 50%, start QE3, forgive all student loans, invade Syria and let Food Stamp recipients use the card to buy crack.....whatever it takes to accelerate the collapse

I'm with Zarathustra.

I hope they invent more drugs like bath salts.

I heard the same thing in '08 summer.

We always knew they'll raid 401ks some day. That'll be the tipping point.


What was once Tin, is now Gold Plated Truth.

Not much left after 401ks, they'll need to start seizing assets.

As a 'tax' of course.

Fraudster wrote..

Expect to be compelled to do, or be forced to take part in, all kind of odious things now.

Things even more odious than paying for the murder of innocent bystanders by flying robots?

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I heard the same thing in '08 summer.

Last I checked, the Government did not collapse in 2008. What I am expecting is a debt crisis that is really going to put the proverbial stick in the wheels. A possible end of the dollar as the reserve currency. Drastic national changes kind of scenario. Karl thinks it will happen this year or early next. I say no, and instead it will happen in a few (emphasis) years.

5 months or 5 years doesn't make much difference in the big picture. It's too far gone to save.

Agree TMD. I am only quibbling over the when. For me it won't be "right now".

I have posted here before that the US has a few decades left before the inevitable.

So you think 8% medical care cost increases, 10-20% college tuition increases, and ~6%+ increases in total debt can continue for decades? I don't think so. To all of the hecklers, why don't you run the numbers yourself instead of being narrow-minded. You all really think we can continue this train for another decade?

My personal opinion is it will continue until the 401K/IRA money is all used up by broke, out of work former middle class debt slaves, then the sheer number of people not affording any of their expenses will crash the system completely.

So, my opinion has evolved - system crash in 2015, and continual, slow steps down until then.

You have a few more years to prepare for the worst, folks; I suggest you not delay. If you plant a fruit tree now you'll have fruit in 2-3 years from it, just in time to survive bare store shelves and FEMA camps.

You'd better have a 15 foot stone wall with armed guards around that fruit tree.

Not today for sure :)

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My personal opinion is it will continue until the 401K/IRA money is all used up by broke, out of work former middle class debt slaves, then the sheer number of people not affording any of their expenses will crash the system completely the Government.

So, my opinion has evolved smiley - system crash in 2015, and continual, slow steps down until then.

This sounds about right.

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So you think 8% medical care cost increases, 10-20% college tuition increases, and ~6%+ increases in total debt can continue for decades? I don't think so. To all of the hecklers, why don't you run the numbers yourself instead of being narrow-minded. You all really think we can continue this train for another decade?

You assume things continue as they are today. We have not even began to face the real problems ahead. The one sign I am looking for is people in the streets, general strikes, real population uprising. We are many, many years away from that. I will say again, Decades away from that.
I am not an economist, but I do know history, and history has that pesky thing about wanting to repeat itself. Our situation today is not unprecedented.

All of that will happen once the deficit spending ends. For your theory to work the deficit spending must continue at the current rate (or worse) for the next 20 years. Please show me how that will work. Because the cessation of federal deficit spending (and forced balancing of the budget) means the Government takes about 1.5-2 trillion out of the economy. With knock on effects you are looking at about 40-50% declines in GDP. All of that will generate exactly what you want to see. IMO, everyone expecting this broken system to limp along for "decades" are going to be caught completely off guard and it is they, again IMO, who will suffer the worst.

The simple fact is folks the only reason these things are happening is because WE allow it to continue. Congress can pass no law or compel you to do ANYTHING without your approval. If they pass a law that tells you that you MUST do something and you do it then you are giving them your approval. I don't know how to make it any more clear than that. There are always choices in life. Maybe Americans will figure that out some day and the madness will end.

Fraud I don't think you have a point. You like semantics. For millions of Americans since 2008, there has been a collapse. And little recovery. If you want hordes of people eating faces in the street, I agree that isn't going to happen. The economy ****ing blows and the future is bleak as can be. As Karl says, the math doesn't lie. 2015? It doesn't matter. You are like the guy playing craps on the deck of the Titanic. Win a few more hands before it all goes down? Pointless debate.