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Tuesday, July 17, 2012
Pauken Challenging 'Conventional Wisdom' That More Young People Should Go to to College
says current policy 'dooms kids to debt and unemployment'
Jim Forsyth



At a time when politicians like San Antonio Mayor Julian Castro and education officials are pushing for every child to go to college, Texas Workforce Commissioner Tom Pauken is swimming against the tide, saying the state should 'stop pretending' that college is for everybody, 1200 WOAI news reports.



Pauken told 1200 WOAI news that this approach has left tens of thousands of newly minted sociology graduates in Texas 'doomed to debt and unemployment.'



"Young people coming out of the four year universities with a general education degree on average have a level of debt of $25,000 or more, and they're having a tough time getting jobs in this economic climate," Pauken said.



Pauken said the state should bring back 'vocational education' classes and do more technical and skills training, because that is where the jobs are.



"The average age of a master plumber in the state of Texas is 56 years of age," he said. "The average age of a masonry craftsman is 69 years of age."



Pauken said Texas has plenty of young men and women with degrees in 'general studies,' but what the state really needs is plumbers, electricians, and technicians, and he says this 'college for all' mentality, which is reinforced by the STAAR Test, is not serving the state, or its young people, well.



Vocational education classes are generally a thing of the past, only the nickname of the Lanier 'Voks' recalls the days when students went to high school not to prepare for college, but to learn a trade. Vocational education classes, wood shop, auto shop, and technical skills training in public school fell out of fashion in the 1980s, when school officials became concerned that students of certain ethnic, racial, or economic groups were being 'pigeon holed' into vocational careers because they were not considered 'good enough' for college.



But Pauken says the tables have turned, and the average plumber today makes more money, and has more job opportunities, than the average college graduate.

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No **** Sherlock.


All through school they told us how we had to go to College at ANY cost to ever HOPE of making a good wage and a positive impact on the economy.

I tell you if someone stepped in and said "OH btw mediocre plumbers, electricians, and mechanics make $25/hour pretty easy." How many would still take 20-60k in debt for MAYBE the chance to make 20 dollars/hour within 5 years of graduating?

Not to mention job security and benefits. I won't even start about the erosion there for entry level positions.

I have a Ph.D. and I took shop in high school because I wanted to be able to repair my own stuff. College and Vo-Tech are not mutually exclusive.

Flap

I don't think the idea here is to be able to change your own oil and sharpen your mower blades on you bench grinder while still persuing a career in Office Chair Management.

The problem is that most trades require you not only learn stuff, but be able to apply that knowledge in the real world. You cannot bury dumb folks in a mound of 4.0 GPAs (like you can in General Ed, Liberal Arts, and many other fields of study) and expect them to succeed in careers in the trades (or even be hired in the first place) any more than they succeed with degree-in-hand now.

The trades are often a Good Ole Boys Network in and of themselves, and word gets around as to who "knows their ****" and who doesn't. They are quickly screened out of the job market, and sometimes blackballed entirely.

The dummies out the can no more be pushed into the trades, than they can be given degrees, with realistic expectations of success.

Let's face the REAL truth: some folks out there "maxed out" when they were hired to flip burgers or push brooms.

True however if it turns out they can only be a plumber's helper or electrician's apprentice at least they are starting out earning an hourly wage and not buried in debt with their mind confused by false expectations of a lifestyle they believe they are entitled to since they "got a degree"

They can TRY to work for plumbers/electricians/carpenters/masons...but they'll be taking entry-level jobs for their entire careers, IF they're hired by anybody at all, after a certain point. See: blackballed.

but that is the point - they'll do those entry level jobs without the weight of tens of thousands of debt.

Rjazz117 wrote..

Let's face the REAL truth: some folks out there "maxed out" when they were hired to flip burgers or push brooms.

Yep. Part of the Big Lie is simply go to college then you can be a Physicians Assistant or Vet and make 100k+ as your potential is limitless !

Cry me a river. That is just intentionally lying to kids. But its not that there is no Santa, its a lie that may cost them 40k/yr.

Consequences to the HS counselor and the colleges and the people who repeat this? Zero.

Who pushes this nonsense? Big Education, Big Government, the Banks. Its just a circle jerk where people are fleeced in the name of the common good, or modern - information age - society.

Times almost up...

Whats the bigger bubble...

Ricka01...Yep...no debt, but no potential for growth either.

Low...Yupyup...precisely the issue, and I refused to play along myself, 20 years ago. We just helped a young friend of ours see the truth too, and she was horrified that "Nobody told me ANY of this!" Now, she knows, and is much better off as a result...despite her highly justified anger at her former "counselors" and "educators".

You know what I just found out last week? Our city has a vocational school for 11 & 12th grades! I was completely unaware of this. They also teach adults (for a fee of course). Everything from AC, welding, robotics, hair stylist, dental technician, etc... The kids go to their regular high school in the morning & a bus takes them to the votech in the afternoon.

As I've mentioned before, my kids are going to go the AP route (to take a year off of college) & community college (for another year) & then attend a local 4 year college-if they choose to continue and get a degree. But now that I know about the votech school, they'll incorporate that as well. I'm so excited about this opportunity for them. It really solidifies their chances of getting out of school with no college debt & a vocation.

My first teaching position was at a community college. When advising students, we weren't permitted to try to get them to see that their career goals were maybe a little too high. The slightest suggestion that they weren't all headed for Noble Prizes in physics would make all hell break loose.

I listened in once as an adjunct faculty member advised a girl who wanted to be a doctor. She had tested into the lowest remedial classes we had in both math and English. Assuming she passed every remedial class and continued on each semester, it was going to take her three years just to get to the point where she could enroll in college classes. Based on listening to her talk, I'm pretty sure she wasn't going to pass them on the first try. The poor adjunct had to sit there and help her figure out when she was going to take chemistry and physics, etc., like any of that was ever going to happen.

I used to have students who wanted to go to law school tell me how much they hated reading and despised writing papers. I would gently suggest that if they hated reading and writing, that they would be miserable in law school. I couldn't suggest that they weren't capable of doing it so I tried to steer them away by telling them how much they would hate every minute of it.

We mustn't give anyone a dose of reality. We must let them run up huge debts trying to live their dreams.

If HS counselors really wanted to do good, they would tell all the aspiring Pre-Med Pre-Vet college applicants that you get a "free" year in college as a freshmen, as much of the stuff you were already exposed to in HS !

Then starting out in sophomore year you will be required to take the weed out courses.

For Pre-Med/Vet the first real one is Organic Chemistry. Not hard really, but it is new. And it does require you to memorize some specifics of benzyne ring interactions etc, kinda boring in reality. Your lecture hall, at a decent sized school, will still have 300 students in it. Most will "C" this course. Heh.

You want to be an engineer? OK here This is the course on Differential Equations. So sorry, you got a D. That assumes you didn't flunk out having to take Fortran as a freshman. What a terrible language that is. lol

Of course all of this is on a curve as well !

Instead, other then the standard - you will have to work hard clap trap, all this is really never mentioned. I wonder why....

I hear this stupidity daily from well-meaning friends who ask about my daughter. They know full well she is near MR, but still ask what she'd like to take up when she goes to college.

"MR"?

mentally retarded, she's borderline (IQ 75-ish). College is out of the question, vocational would be fine as she has decent spatial skills.

But, everyone goes on about how she should be "College Bound".

Gotcha!

I graduated 2 or 3 out of a class of 800 and went on and got a degree, but in addition I had shop and mechanical drawing, worked as a plumber and air conditioning repair apprentice up to journeyman. In addition, I worked at pipe fitting. I could have got a master's license but decided not to. When I graduated, I had one of the highest paying jobs out of university but it was still half what I made working in a trade. Now here is the thing, it is hot hard work and you need a little intelligence about you at least to work on AC. Most people just do not want to work that hard and it is also dirty.

On the other hand, most people just are not college material. I remember one time in a graduate course we digressed to solving simultaneous equations which I could do in 8th grade. I raised my hand and told the professor I paid $2,500 for the course and I do not want to spend my time doing Algebra 2. He looked at me and said I was right and told the person to go get some Algebra coaching. That girl hated me but she had been bragging how she had been accepted into the PHD program at a top 10 university. Please give me a break you could not find your ass.

Most things they teach at so called Universities are hobbies. They are not for a real job!

I've worked in the shops and will point out a different aspect of stupidity. When you mess up a mortgage application or an advertising presentation it is embarrassing.
When you mess up in the shop you can get crushed or maimed.
I have seen a fellow lift half an eight ton mold with the center of mass above where he screwed the eye-bolts in. Then he squatted down and leaned in to look up into the cavity and steadied himself by leaning on the mold. This of course made the mold roll out of the crane hooks and pin his head and shoulders to the concrete floor. We never did get the stain off the floor.
I saw a fellow who had no idea how to drive a fork lift get on one and try to move it because it was blocking the aisle. He selected reverse instead of forward and backed it out the open truck bay door. It rolled 180° in mid air and landed on top of him.
Jobs around moving machinery and steam and high voltage eliminate the stupid, but in a rude sudden sort of way Darwin would recognize.
It is not an environment for those that are not spatially aware, or become distracted with a thoughts.

Our country has turned into this weird cargo cult where we go through the motions of being a great society without cultivating the necessary underpinnings of one.

Quote:

It is not an environment for those that are not spatially aware, or become distracted with a thoughts.

My son is now 17 years old, and from what I've seen, this requirement will disqualify most of the kids now in high school.

Went to Costa Rica several years ago.. the bus driver and the tour guide both had college degrees mostly paid for by the state.. the logic was that they invested in their people instead of an army..

In America, the tuition is only paying for pensions, while the graduates are saddled in debt that is most likely to be defaulted on.

Quote:

In America, the tuition is only paying for pensions, while the graduates are saddled in debt that is most likely to be defaulted on.

not correct, it is almost impossible to discharge student loan debt.