Fed is not a conspiracy of elite banksters in a grand scheme designed to remove money from the masses. After a lot of research that is my opinion.

Debt is not money. Money is an exchange of value that can only be removed by the confidence in its exchange value. DEBT can be removed with a punch of a keyboard button. Can the punch of a keyboard button remove the 100.00 bill from your pocket? No? Can the punch of the keyboard remove 100.00 of your debt from a credit card? Yes!
In a fractional reserve system, yes, money is created by loans that are put to productive use. Banks loan and money is created, we all know that! But are those loans really money until that money matures and is redeeemed? What if that loan is never redeemed. Poof! No Money! In other words, Debt can and does evaperate in certain conditions. Money does not, you have it or you do not!
From a traders perspective, debt and money are different species all together.

Right now, would you like your neighbor to owe you a 100K at 11% or would you rather have that 100k in the bank earning 2.5%.

Bank=Cd's T-bills, MM..et al.

NOW TELL ME DEBT AND MONEY ARE THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!

Hell no!..Risk premiums (credit & maturity), opportunity cost..blah blah blah

And that you tube video is exactly the kind of nonsense I mentioned earler.

Jeeze!!!

Trade what you see, and get off the youtube! think for yourself!!!

I don't mean to be harsh, but damn, I have seen lot of stuff here on this forum that is more conducive to losing money than making it.

Maybe I am in the wrong place, I have taken my beatings in the markets in years past, I am not in the mood to debate the nebulous!! I do ok these days in the markets but not looking for a*****ing match.

B

AJ - that was nasty - DAAAAMN!!! who the hell are you to judge?? He's just trying to be polite and let everyone know where he's coming from.
Don't sweat it Ashleywy - AJ likely beats puppies and steals candy from babies too


Bmaso - thanks for the opinion - was simply curious how up to speed you were with TF debates. Since you are a new poster, instead of calling you an *******, I would ask that you review the original post, which simply asks if you saw the video. Don't make the logical fallacy that we advocate everything in it because we asked if you saw it. It was a question about YOU and YOUR knowledge. You don't get free credibility around here, otherwise this just turns into a bunch of yahoo board spouting.

Now flesh out your specific arguments more succinctly instead of just ranting.

Actually I like to steal candy and use it to beat puppies. Or maybe it was steal puppies and use them to beat babies? Or maybe it was feed babies to puppies? Eh... whatever.

People who don't respect themselves have serious issues though. Ashleywy will be happier if he/she grows a spine, methinks.

good ticker Gen. Does this mean we should trust the federal reserve and the banks before the government when it comes to lending? I have a problem with that as well based on the actions, and inactions, that have occurred since Aug 2007. I think the paradigm of a central bank needs to be refined so that there is more transparency, and public control (of some sorts). I hate the system that we have now because it is tilted towards the insiders, and does not provide an equal benefit to the public citizen.

Allclear, the disinfectant for virtually all forms of chicanery is sunshine. LOTS of it.

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So in order to prevent collapse the US government will be forced to repudiate or default on its current contingent liabilities. (And yes I understand the Supreme Court has ruled that entitlements are not a legal obligation of the federal government.) The point is that the debt service necessary to meet these contingent liabilities would result in collapse of the entire financial system which is exactly what Nothing has argued inevitably happens in an interest bearing debt based system.

There is no obligation for the government to perform on those "contingent liabilities."

In fact, they were fraudulent on first inspection, and like the other forms of fraud practiced in the ruse of "financial engineering", the problem is that we refuse to confront these issues head on and debate them.

The solution to all of this is to do so, not further obfuscate and issue.

The problem is not the design of the system in general. It is the hiding of the truth.

People love to throw around the word "fiat" like its the word "****", but in fact all monetary systems rest on confidence.

All.

And for those who think that currency should not be a store of value and intend to do things that make it impossible for that to be so, they are fools, because the fungible nature of currency means that one can simply store their value in something else (barrels of oil, bars of gold, etc); by doing so we create an arbitrage and shortage system which is far more destructive to the common weal than if people hoard FRNs.

Consider what happened when the Hunt's tried to corner the Silver market. They attempted to hoard it and create the mother and father of all squeezes.

You can't do that with currency, but you sure as hell can with any physical commodity, and a rotating system of boom and busts as this occurs is FAR more disruptive than any sort of hoarding of "money" could ever be.

It's long been my fear that when the **** hit the fan people would line up and beg to have their freedom and liberty stripped away. Just look at 9/11 and the patriot act. I can't tell you the number of people that basically said "I'll gladly give up some freedom if it makes us safer..." My response was usually "I'll die before I give up my freedom..."

My problem is that I'm bad at explaining what's going on without sounding like a gloom and doom nutjob. People look at me and say "It'll never get that bad..." But I know that when it does get that bad they'll be saying "I'm willing to trade my freedom and liberty for financial security..."

I just pray that we'll be able to reach enough people before that time comes and educate them that the nice sheep with those really long sharp teeth that promised to help isn't a sheep....

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The problem is not the design of the system in general. It is the hiding of the truth.

There is always an inherent flaw in the design of every system that leads to its inevitable demise. However, the greatest danger resides in blind faith that a perfect system can be devised and implemented to regulate the conduct of human affairs.

Usury has always caused human suffering, exploitation and conflict as depicted so eloquently by Shakespeare in the Merchant of Venice. But the point of Nothing's argument is that any opportunity to implement an interest-free monetary system would only avail itself after total financial meltdown and worldwide systemic collapse into a modern variant of the Dark Ages. At which point, according to Nothing, if I understand her correctly, FRNs would become totally worthless as a result of their having already become priceless.

From what I understand, Nothing predicts that we will revert to a barter system before a new financial system might have an opportunity to emerge. As far as I can tell Nothing has basically posited that resistance against the central banking cartel and its inevitable destruction is futile. No action is necessary or recommended by her except self-preservation.

Therefore, I think efforts to make Nothing out as some sort of advocate to overthrow the current financial system in favor of some sort of centrally planned fascist state are misguided in the extreme. If anything from what I can tell Nothing would abhor any effort to devise a centrally planned and controlled system of debt origination. And the people that Nothing most despises are intent on exactly that undertaking globally.

Personally, despite the evils and inherent flaws of usury, I don't believe an interest-free monetary system could possibly work except within a very localized community because it results in the tragedy of the commons.

The problem with interest free debt origination is that it provides no mechanism by which to differentiate between borrowers based on the risk of repayment and the risk of the venture being financed ultimately failing. In my opinion you need to have a system that allows bad credit risks to be charged more to borrow money and good credit risks to be charged less.

An interest free debt origination system would be strictly binary either allowing an extension of credit or not allowing it. Such a financial system would be absurdly inflexible regardless of who was actually responsible for administering it.

In fact, I would argue that what we are experiencing today is the result of too little differentiation having been made between highly risky borrowers and more responsible borrowers. Ironically, if things continue down the current path we will be in ZIRP which is essentially interest free lending.

Gen, you're getting close to jumping the shark with this one. I don't get it--you rail against "tinfoil hats" and then you come out with this? Do you seriously think that the US Government is going to become the originator of all loans and that some new form of currency is magically going to appear? I doubt it.

As far as the progression of societies and the swinging of the pendulum, well, I ought to point out that the American experiment has never happened before in 5,000 years and maybe it was an anomaly all along. Not that I am a supporter of fascism, but frankly, I don't see how a nation that has to have wars every 10 years or so in order to sustain its wretched self is truly civilized or at all decent. With each passing year, I become more and more the anarchist. We can do better than centrally planned states with fake democratic underpinnings. It will take educated men and women to stand up to the hordes of blathering, mouth-breathing idiots and it may very well take coercion to do that.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, and so forth. But all the mollycoddling of lesser intellects is what is going to be the undoing of the US, not all the debt or the crooked deals--those are just symptoms of the overall problem, which is and always has been ignorance. And even "smart" people can be hoodwinked or bribed.

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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, and so forth. But all the mollycoddling of lesser intellects is what is going to be the undoing of the US, not all the debt or the crooked deals--those are just symptoms of the overall problem, which is and always has been ignorance. And even "smart" people can be hoodwinked or bribed.

"Democracy can only survive until the people realize they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury."

That's the danger - we destabilize the government, then "a savior" appears.

It is a real risk and one that we better pay attention to.

Alex2008

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http://www.tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/ak....
Yes, default in terms of the current $ denominated interest bearing debt monetary scheme. It's inevitable.

It will be an opportunity to eliminate the entire Banking system and it's store of value money, institute a system of non-interest bearing debt based money, and get the Republic back on the track The Founders intended.

Her ideals are great and the punishment it would deal on bankers seems fitting to me but I see it as a bargaining position only. If government wakes up to the fact that idealism is ready to strike down corrupt capitalism they may decide to enforce existing regulations rather than face the alternatives.

As KD points out, there will be many solutions offered up and each one should be carefully examined.

The Senate is your best shot of stopping this, all efforts need to be concentrated there.

They need to wake up and do their jobs as statesmen, there are a few up there left.

Well, if this plays out badly I hope the guitar army is hiring. I can still play a mean riff. Or work for Brawndo.

"Democracy can only survive until the people realize they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury."

Didn't this exact thing happen to the Roman Empire?

In their case, the emperor solved the demand for largess by debasing the currency.

Rome had many things go haywire, so I think no single item was the cause of its demise.

Yes, currency was debased with base metals, and this caused inflation.

Hyphenated Romanism was, IMHO, the biggest cause of the eventual disintegration of the Roman Empire.

What to say...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct....


"Iceland is on the brink of collapse. Inflation and interest rates are raging upwards. The krona, Iceland's currency, is in freefall and is rated just above those of Zimbabwe and Turkmenistan. One of the country's three independent banks has been nationalised, another is asking customers for money, and the discredited government and officials from the central bank have been huddled behind closed doors for three days with still no sign of a plan. International banks won't send any more money and supplies of foreign currency are running out.

People talk about whether a new emergency unity government is needed and if the EU would fast-track the country to membership. On Friday the queues at the banks were huge, as people moved savings into the most secure accounts. Yesterday people were buying up supplies of olive oil and pasta after a supermarket spokesman announced on Friday night that they had no means of paying the foreign currency advances needed to import more foodstuffs."