Remember the expression "We don't talk about religion and politics?"

Everything is framed by religion and politics. Except maybe the weather.

"Religion" is the aforementioned "God n Gays" diversion, but it also encloses things like gun control, healthcare, drug laws, etc.

"Politics" is "rah rah rah Republicans evul Democrats, my team good your team bad!"

FedUp is about something we can agree to be against, and that is "fraud and theft".

Life might be framed by whatever religion and politics wedge issues we hold personally, but they're certainly not the picture itself.

Grf,

You must be sobering up. (is there an olive branch emoticon?)

Agreement to be against fraud and theft is one thing, but analysis and correction requires root cause determination... which leads to religion and politics. At least that's my view.

Here, olive branch.

---/0---o--

Humans are really bad at assigning root cause in a social context (that is, social engineering which describes religion and politics both) outside of an engineering/science context because of our internal biases, which is why I think the best idea is to stay away from it, and instead just focus on punishing people for fraud and theft instead of trying to combat what we think is the "root cause".

All of the social programming we think we can do (religion and politics) absolutely pales in effectiveness to actual consistent prosecution of a very basic set of wrongdoings (murder, theft, fraud) and let the erstwhile perpetrators decide what to do.

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I don't think you're despicable, I might even share your opinion in some ways, or I could be violently against it, you'll never know. But this is not the forum to talk about it - but we both could agree to not talk about it here (which does NOT mean cede the issue, just leave it to others) and go kick bankster ass together.

Point taken- but I can't help but notice your sig line.

Grf wrote..

Contribute to other groups that push whatever other causes you want. I do, but I don't talk about it here, nor do I have the conceit to think that others should or would share my views.

As do I; however, you do not get to dictate what we talk about here.

Grf wrote..

Thinking that FedUp should take on or even talk about DADT or abortion or whatever else...

Two parts:

1. FedUp isn't taking on ANY issues other than those that relate to the fraud and corruption between and amongst the banking cartel and the government.

2. FedUp can TALK about whatever it wants - as FedUp is made up of many people of diverse opinions. We do not, however, champion any causes other than the aforementioned in #1. (i.e. none of our activism or formal appearances will EVER be about anything other than #1). You making the statement that we shouldn't 'talk about it' is censorship and dictating. We don't do that here. Unlike what NPR just did, we don't tell our members what to talk about. Neither does Karl. The idea that his rant the other day against the Tea Parties in any way was him telling the Tea Parties what they can TALK about is false or that it should be construed to mean that expression of free speech should be limited to only one subject is absurd. Karl has NEVER stood for that and Ticker-Forum at large has NEVER operated in such a fashion, nor will it. What Karl wants is for the Tea Parties to be actively hammering on the fraud and corruption, which at this point, many groups have entirely abandoned. I will now issue a warning: Karl does not take kindly to people twisting his meaning..

And for the record, PRIOR to Karl's Ticker expounding on his appearance on Ratigan's show, I posted my OWN scree on FedUpUSA. You happen to read it? I think not. http://fedupusa.org/2010/10/19/fedupusa-.... Have you read my previous articles lambasting the Michigan Attorney General, who happens to be a Republican and someone who sucked up to the Tea Parties to get votes? Or any of my other articles ripping apart the GOP? Have you even looked at the main site? Find an article I've posted having to do with ANY wedge issues.

Now I will thank people for not dictating how I run this Forum or dictating to others what they can or cannot talk about. This is a DISCUSSION forum. If you don't like what is discussed, then don't participate or, post your own thread topics that you WOULD like discussed. Take responsibility for your OWN actions and let others take responsibility for theirs. If anyone breaches the TOS or rules, I will take care of it.

I might be against gays in the military for reasons of unit cohesion, or I might be for it on the grounds of equal rights. It doesn't matter here because the instant I bring up either viewpoint a flamewar ensues, recruits are turned away, and a bankster goes free.

I might be against abortion because I am a Christian, or I might be for it because it's the woman's choice. It doesn't matter here because the instant I bring up either viewpoint a flamewar ensues, recruits are turned away, and a bankster goes free.

Therefore, I will request that we not talk about wedge issues here (but go do so elsewhere if it suits you) as FedUp is the best tool for taking on the banksters that I see at the moment.

Within the walls of FedUp/TF *and only there* I see God and gays as a division-inducing wedge issue as irrelevant as whether blue or red is a better color.

This is tea partying, plain and simple.

I really feel for the soldiers who have served in Iraq or Afghanistan; trudging around carrying heavy loads in stifling Summer heat, not knowing where the next bullet is coming from since they can't identify their enemy, not knowing when the road might lift up from under them, adrenalin constantly switched on, conflicted about their job because of the friendlies they accidently killed,(assuming they're not back home with missing limbs, blind, suffering from obscure physical illnesses or psychological illness).

Worrying about the sexual preferences of other unit members would be a long way down my list of priorities.

If someone is going to decide that they think banks should be allowed to get away with murder because of my position on homosexuality, the problem is with them, not me. The point of this whole exercise is to recover our rights, not surrender them. And clearly they don't "get it" if my opinion on another topic matters to them at all.

That argument is really familiar to me, it is the same kind of argument Republicans made while lying to my face for the past 20+ years. Fool me once...

"If someone is going to decide that they think banks should be allowed to get away with murder because of my position on homosexuality"

No, I don't think banks *should* get away with murder because of your position (stop strawmanning plz), the point is that yammering about homosexuality - whether you're OK with it or against it - is conducive to them getting away with murder.

Am I against homosexuality? I could be. Am I pointedly not going to discuss it so we can concentrate on getting new recruits onboard from both the right and the left to jail banksters? Absolutely.

And yet this thread continues largely because you continue to argue about whether or not it is a valid topic of discussion.

Walk the walk if you're going to talk the talk.

Oh, stop with the false piety.

Stating that X should not be a topic of discussion when ideologues / provocateurs / concern trolls bring up X is equally as important as not talking about X. &#34Walking the walk" means doing both, not just the latter.

FedUp is now much more public because of Karl's ticker. I think that it's important to point out that perhaps we shouldn't talk about various Xs here (not just if we're running for office) if we're going to continue to attract supporters.

The only people saying that "X is equally important" on this issue are the homosexual activists and their Communist friends. It's not WE who brought this up, this **** gets shoved into our faces constantly, and we are well within our rights to protest it.

Again, your complaints are best directed towards the activists, not to the people saying 'no thanks' to the normalization agenda. If we had our druthers the topic wouldn't be on the agenda at all.

Both sides of many many wedge issues do the "play the victim" game in order to elicit sympathy and justify whatever - "they did it first, so my venom is just a response, blame them!"

It takes a big person to step out of that cycle to pursue larger goals.

Well, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the idea that these things aren't related. Social liberalism is directly connected to the abuses in the banking sector (see CRA) and government insolvency (entitlements). So is globalism (grossly unfair "free trade agreements, the cost and consequences of military empire).

The idea that we can somehow compartmentalize one aspect of the overall human integrity reduction program (its financial aspect) from another (its moral aspect) simply does not compute.

It can't be done. We are directly informed by one of its authors that our Constitution would only be effective for a moral people. We will not find the courage to overcome the financial crisis among people who do not have the ability to distinguish right from wrong, truth from fiction - such people will be misled as easily as they have been in the past.

Left wing or right wing now, when the crunch bites them, people will understand - conservative is a liberal who has been mugged, as they say. You know that a lot of people have been mugged to date and even more are up at bat, many oblivious of what is to come for them. As the American Dream dies for Americans, one person at a time, they will ask how this came to be, and come to understand the truth.

I really don't think people expressing frustration over this issue, especially given that soldiers' lives are again being put on the line as a sacrifice to the gods of political correctness, is going to change any of that. IMHO if you do not comprehend that our diminished moral capacity is directly related to and was a necessary prerequisite for our diminished industrial, financial, and intellectual capacities, then you do not understand the whole of the situation this country is in.

The most direct way I can put this is: The lying HAS TO STOP. We are being lied to about EVERYTHING. It is pathological the way it comes out relentlessly. Our Presidents lie and aren't even ashamed of it. Our leaders of industry and finance lie. Our journalists lie. Our judges lie. Our religious leaders lie. Our scientists lie. Even our auditors lie! This is all one and the same problem!

The solution to all these problems is the same - call out the lies and refuse to live by them.

I will no more be forced to believe that one man can lovingly shove his dick up another man's ass and that's normal and OK than I will that, say, Social Security is in fine shape. In most cases, I got the same people telling me both things. The root of the problem is that people are lying and getting away with it and this has become the national culture. We are never going to get to "it is not OK to lie in the financial sector" without saying first "it is not OK to lie."

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As the American Dream dies for Americans, one person at a time,
they will ask how this came to be, and come to understand the truth.

Very profound statement, Ican.


It is the death of a thousand cuts...
including cuts from "wedge issues"

Ican scores again.

Again, I might be on your side regarding DADT, but insisting that everyone wishing to jail banksters has to specifically accept the Icanhasbailout dick in ass viewpoint or all is lost is just silly catastrophizing and no-true-Scotsman-izing.

If a gay DA jails Henry Paulson and Bernanke, no one on TF would say the case should be tossed because of where said DA sticks his weener.

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If a gay DA jails Henry Paulson and Bernanke, no one on TF would say
the case should be tossed because of where said DA sticks his weener.

In that case, it shouldn't matter if the DA is a pedophile, serial killer
or does terrible things to small animals... it's all good, right ?

No, someone is getting hurt in all those examples.

Mesa, I might be on your side WRT homosexuality, but to conflate murder with homosexuality makes us look like raving loonies.

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Mesa, I might be on your side WRT homosexuality, but to conflate murder
with homosexuality makes us look like raving loonies.

Grf, when you try to separate God and religion from law and order
you appear to me as a "raving loony"

At first I thought your posts were jokes.


As I posted here previously, not too long ago
homosexuality was certified as a mental illness
and the practice was illegal.

Over the past few decades, laws which were originally
based on God and religion, have been eroded.

Homosexuality is now not only legal, it is promoted.

Laws against pedophilia and murder have also been
liberalized and eroded.

As I said, the death of the West is from a thousand cuts.

Mesa pulls even.

I'll give you this: I am well and truly sick of gay men who can't come to terms with their homosexuality.