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Elliott_wave
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Regarding Islam as a threat

Bezzle wrote..

You mean, aside from the fact that a central tenant of the faith is the eventual submission of the entire world to it?


I don't care what some crackpot group wants. I care about what they can DO.


Do you really believe that any particular Islamist group, absent the power of some central govt. such as the USA, would have the POWER to implement that?
Islam, because it denies individual freedom, cannot hope to meet technologically what a free and decentralized market could produce in terms of weapons or tools of defense.

Without the centralized monopoly on power, Islam would moderate quickly, much like Christianity did when its chokehold on political power waned.

If the USA did not have hundreds of bases throughout the world, do you really believe that the Islamists would really have the ability to wage war on American soil? Why wouldn't newly liberated Americans -- with a truly free market in weapons -- shoot the bastards who caused such a disturbance, and eradicate the problem rather quickly?

The idea that Islam is going to take over the world is just as ludicrous as the idea that Mexicans are bankrupting the USA. It is your personal Brown Menace.

Quote:

I wrote: "a market for any particular endeavor -- e.g., the market for kicking bad guy ass -- is not rendered morally illegitimate merely[ because a government has forcibly nationalized all providers in that market."


I really don't care what you think is "moral" or "immoral." What crackpots do half way around the world isn't much of my business, unless they start infringing on MY freedoms, or the freedoms of those who I personally choose to ally with.

Friedrich Nietzsche wrote..

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

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Bezzle
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Quote:
Without the centralized monopoly on power, Islam would moderate quickly
Wrong, because the essence of Mohammedism (unlike the gospels of Christ) is immoderation and violence.
Quote:
If the USA did not have hundreds of bases throughout the world, do you really believe that the Islamists would really have the ability to wage war on American soil?
Islam wages war by demographic conquest when it cannot wage war by the sword. When it becomes the majority of the population, it then implements a tyrannical government which subjugates the rest into dhimmitude status -- that is the tried and true method of its spread for over a thousand years; and the advent of democratic government and mass communication in the 20th century has actually hastened the process (e.g., the descent of former "economic tiger" Malaysia into a fundamentalist theocracy, etc).
Quote:
I really don't care what you think is "moral" or "immoral." What crackpots do half way around the world isn't much of my business, unless they start infringing on MY freedoms, or the freedoms of those who I personally choose to ally with.
Yeah; I noticed the way you jumped all over Downrange when trotted out the 'common needs' argument.

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Elliott_wave
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Quote:

Islam wages war by demographic conquest when it cannot wage war by the sword. When it becomes the majority of the population, it then implements a tyrannical government which subjugates the rest into dhimmitude status -- that is the tried and true method of its spread for over a thousand years; and the advent of democratic government and mass communication in the 20th century has actually hastened the process (e.g., the descent of former "economic tiger" Malaysia into a fundamentalist theocracy, etc).


Wow, what hysteria.

First, I didn't know you had a problem with people f*cking. And having children. It's what human beings do.

You do know there are different schools in Islam, correct? You do know that there have been periods in history when Islam was the more tolerant governor, when compared to Christianity, correct?

There are already a few billion muslims already -- why haven't they taken over yet? What are they waiting for?

This neo-con warmongering bull**** I have no use for. How you can be so anti-government on one hand, yet fall for the most idiotic of propaganda campaigns, mystifies me.




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You do know that there have been periods in history when Islam was the more tolerant governor, when compared to Christianity, correct?
No such period ever existed outside of Islamophile propaganda.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news....


The Real History of the Crusades
By Thomas F. Madden

With the possible exception of Umberto Eco, medieval scholars are not used to getting much media attention. We tend to be a quiet lot (except during the annual bacchanalia we call the International Congress on Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo, Michigan, of all places), poring over musty chronicles and writing dull yet meticulous studies that few will read. Imagine, then, my surprise when within days of the September 11 attacks, the Middle Ages suddenly became relevant.

As a Crusade historian, I found the tranquil solitude of the ivory tower shattered by journalists, editors, and talk-show hosts on tight deadlines eager to get the real scoop. What were the Crusades?, they asked. When were they? Just how insensitive was President George W. Bush for using the word "crusade" in his remarks? With a few of my callers I had the distinct impression that they already knew the answers to their questions, or at least thought they did. What they really wanted was an expert to say it all back to them. For example, I was frequently asked to comment on the fact that the Islamic world has a just grievance against the West. Doesn’t the present violence, they persisted, have its roots in the Crusades’ brutal and unprovoked attacks against a sophisticated and tolerant Muslim world? In other words, aren’t the Crusades really to blame?

Osama bin Laden certainly thinks so. In his various video performances, he never fails to describe the American war against terrorism as a new Crusade against Islam. Ex-president Bill Clinton has also fingered the Crusades as the root cause of the present conflict. In a speech at Georgetown University, he recounted (and embellished) a massacre of Jews after the Crusader conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 and informed his audience that the episode was still bitterly remembered in the Middle East. (Why Islamist terrorists should be upset about the killing of Jews was not explained.) Clinton took a beating on the nation’s editorial pages for wanting so much to blame the United States that he was willing to reach back to the Middle Ages. Yet no one disputed the ex-president’s fundamental premise.

Well, almost no one. Many historians had been trying to set the record straight on the Crusades long before Clinton discovered them. They are not revisionists, like the American historians who manufactured the Enola Gay exhibit, but mainstream scholars offering the fruit of several decades of very careful, very serious scholarship. For them, this is a "teaching moment," an opportunity to explain the Crusades while people are actually listening. It won’t last long, so here goes.

Misconceptions about the Crusades are all too common. The Crusades are generally portrayed as a series of holy wars against Islam led by power-mad popes and fought by religious fanatics. They are supposed to have been the epitome of self-righteousness and intolerance, a black stain on the history of the Catholic Church in particular and Western civilization in general. A breed of proto-imperialists, the Crusaders introduced Western aggression to the peaceful Middle East and then deformed the enlightened Muslim culture, leaving it in ruins. For variations on this theme, one need not look far. See, for example, Steven Runciman’s famous three-volume epic, History of the Crusades, or the BBC/A&E documentary, The Crusades, hosted by Terry Jones. Both are terrible history yet wonderfully entertaining.

So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.

With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne’er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders’ expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.

During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.

* * *

Urban II gave the Crusaders two goals, both of which would remain central to the eastern Crusades for centuries. The first was to rescue the Christians of the East. As his successor, Pope Innocent III, later wrote:

How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? ...Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?

"Crusading," Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an "an act of love"—in this case, the love of one’s neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar, "You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, ‘Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.’"

The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. The word crusade is modern. Medieval Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:

Consider most dear sons, consider carefully that if any temporal king was thrown out of his domain and perhaps captured, would he not, when he was restored to his pristine liberty and the time had come for dispensing justice look on his vassals as unfaithful and traitors...unless they had committed not only their property but also their persons to the task of freeing him? ...And similarly will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood...condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?

The reconquest of Jerusalem, therefore, was not colonialism but an act of restoration and an open declaration of one’s love of God. Medieval men knew, of course, that God had the power to restore Jerusalem Himself—indeed, He had the power to restore the whole world to His rule. Yet as St. Bernard of Clairvaux preached, His refusal to do so was a blessing to His people:

Again I say, consider the Almighty’s goodness and pay heed to His plans of mercy. He puts Himself under obligation to you, or rather feigns to do so, that He can help you to satisfy your obligations toward Himself.... I call blessed the generation that can seize an opportunity of such rich indulgence as this.

It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders’ task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion. Indeed, throughout the history of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, Muslim inhabitants far outnumbered the Catholics. It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.

The Crusades were wars, so it would be a mistake to characterize them as nothing but piety and good intentions. Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes. These are usually well-remembered today. During the early days of the First Crusade in 1095, a ragtag band of Crusaders led by Count Emicho of Leiningen made its way down the Rhine, robbing and murdering all the Jews they could find. Without success, the local bishops attempted to stop the carnage. In the eyes of these warriors, the Jews, like the Muslims, were the enemies of Christ. Plundering and killing them, then, was no vice. Indeed, they believed it was a righteous deed, since the Jews’ money could be used to fund the Crusade to Jerusalem. But they were wrong, and the Church strongly condemned the anti-Jewish attacks.

Fifty years later, when the Second Crusade was gearing up, St. Bernard frequently preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:

Ask anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the Jews in the Psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us always of what our Lord suffered.... Under Christian princes they endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their deliverance."

Nevertheless, a fellow Cistercian monk named Radulf stirred up people against the Rhineland Jews, despite numerous letters from Bernard demanding that he stop. At last Bernard was forced to travel to Germany himself, where he caught up with Radulf, sent him back to his convent, and ended the massacres.

It is often said that the roots of the Holocaust can be seen in these medieval pogroms. That may be. But if so, those roots are far deeper and more widespread than the Crusades. Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested. In a modern war, we call tragic deaths like these "collateral damage." Even with smart technologies, the United States has killed far more innocents in our wars than the Crusaders ever could. But no one would seriously argue that the purpose of American wars is to kill women and children.

By any reckoning, the First Crusade was a long shot. There was no leader, no chain of command, no supply lines, no detailed strategy. It was simply thousands of warriors marching deep into enemy territory, committed to a common cause. Many of them died, either in battle or through disease or starvation. It was a rough campaign, one that seemed always on the brink of disaster. Yet it was miraculously successful. By 1098, the Crusaders had restored Nicaea and Antioch to Christian rule. In July 1099, they conquered Jerusalem and began to build a Christian state in Palestine. The joy in Europe was unbridled. It seemed that the tide of history, which had lifted the Muslims to such heights, was now turning.

* * *

But it was not. When we think about the Middle Ages, it is easy to view Europe in light of what it became rather than what it was. The colossus of the medieval world was Islam, not Christendom. The Crusades are interesting largely because they were an attempt to counter that trend. But in five centuries of crusading, it was only the First Crusade that significantly rolled back the military progress of Islam. It was downhill from there.

When the Crusader County of Edessa fell to the Turks and Kurds in 1144, there was an enormous groundswell of support for a new Crusade in Europe. It was led by two kings, Louis VII of France and Conrad III of Germany, and preached by St. Bernard himself. It failed miserably. Most of the Crusaders were killed along the way. Those who made it to Jerusalem only made things worse by attacking Muslim Damascus, which formerly had been a strong ally of the Christians. In the wake of such a disaster, Christians across Europe were forced to accept not only the continued growth of Muslim power but the certainty that God was punishing the West for its sins. Lay piety movements sprouted up throughout Europe, all rooted in the desire to purify Christian society so that it might be worthy of victory in the East.

Crusading in the late twelfth century, therefore, became a total war effort. Every person, no matter how weak or poor, was called to help. Warriors were asked to sacrifice their wealth and, if need be, their lives for the defense of the Christian East. On the home front, all Christians were called to support the Crusades through prayer, fasting, and alms. Yet still the Muslims grew in strength. Saladin, the great unifier, had forged the Muslim Near East into a single entity, all the while preaching jihad against the Christians. In 1187 at the Battle of Hattin, his forces wiped out the combined armies of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem and captured the precious relic of the True Cross. Defenseless, the Christian cities began surrendering one by one, culminating in the surrender of Jerusalem on October 2. Only a tiny handful of ports held out.

The response was the Third Crusade. It was led by Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa of the German Empire, King Philip II Augustus of France, and King Richard I Lionheart of England. By any measure it was a grand affair, although not quite as grand as the Christians had hoped. The aged Frederick drowned while crossing a river on horseback, so his army returned home before reaching the Holy Land. Philip and Richard came by boat, but their incessant bickering only added to an already divisive situation on the ground in Palestine. After recapturing Acre, the king of France went home, where he busied himself carving up Richard’s French holdings. The Crusade, therefore, fell into Richard’s lap. A skilled warrior, gifted leader, and superb tactician, Richard led the Christian forces to victory after victory, eventually reconquering the entire coast. But Jerusalem was not on the coast, and after two abortive attempts to secure supply lines to the Holy City, Richard at last gave up. Promising to return one day, he struck a truce with Saladin that ensured peace in the region and free access to Jerusalem for unarmed pilgrims. But it was a bitter pill to swallow. The desire to restore Jerusalem to Christian rule and regain the True Cross remained intense throughout Europe.

The Crusades of the 13th century were larger, better funded, and better organized. But they too failed. The Fourth Crusade (1201-1204) ran aground when it was seduced into a web of Byzantine politics, which the Westerners never fully understood. They had made a detour to Constantinople to support an imperial claimant who promised great rewards and support for the Holy Land. Yet once he was on the throne of the Caesars, their benefactor found that he could not pay what he had promised. Thus betrayed by their Greek friends, in 1204 the Crusaders attacked, captured, and brutally sacked Constantinople, the greatest Christian city in the world. Pope Innocent III, who had previously excommunicated the entire Crusade, strongly denounced the Crusaders. But there was little else he could do. The tragic events of 1204 closed an iron door between Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox, a door that even today Pope John Paul II has been unable to reopen. It is a terrible irony that the Crusades, which were a direct result of the Catholic desire to rescue the Orthodox people, drove the two further—and perhaps irrevocably—apart.

The remainder of the 13th century’s Crusades did little better. The Fifth Crusade (1217-1221) managed briefly to capture Damietta in Egypt, but the Muslims eventually defeated the army and reoccupied the city. St. Louis IX of France led two Crusades in his life. The first also captured Damietta, but Louis was quickly outwitted by the Egyptians and forced to abandon the city. Although Louis was in the Holy Land for several years, spending freely on defensive works, he never achieved his fondest wish: to free Jerusalem. He was a much older man in 1270 when he led another Crusade to Tunis, where he died of a disease that ravaged the camp. After St. Louis’s death, the ruthless Muslim leaders, Baybars and Kalavun, waged a brutal jihad against the Christians in Palestine. By 1291, the Muslim forces had succeeded in killing or ejecting the last of the Crusaders, thus erasing the Crusader kingdom from the map. Despite numerous attempts and many more plans, Christian forces were never again able to gain a foothold in the region until the 19th century.

* * *

One might think that three centuries of Christian defeats would have soured Europeans on the idea of Crusade. Not at all. In one sense, they had little alternative. Muslim kingdoms were becoming more, not less, powerful in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. The Ottoman Turks conquered not only their fellow Muslims, thus further unifying Islam, but also continued to press westward, capturing Constantinople and plunging deep into Europe itself. By the 15th century, the Crusades were no longer errands of mercy for a distant people but desperate attempts of one of the last remnants of Christendom to survive. Europeans began to ponder the real possibility that Islam would finally achieve its aim of conquering the entire Christian world. One of the great best-sellers of the time, Sebastian Brant’s The Ship of Fools, gave voice to this sentiment in a chapter titled "Of the Decline of the Faith":

Our faith was strong in th’ Orient,

It ruled in all of Asia,

In Moorish lands and Africa.

But now for us these lands are gone

’Twould even grieve the hardest stone....

Four sisters of our Church you find,

They’re of the patriarchic kind:

Constantinople, Alexandria,

Jerusalem, Antiochia.

But they’ve been forfeited and sacked

And soon the head will be attacked.

Of course, that is not what happened. But it very nearly did. In 1480, Sultan Mehmed II captured Otranto as a beachhead for his invasion of Italy. Rome was evacuated. Yet the sultan died shortly thereafter, and his plan died with him. In 1529, Suleiman the Magnificent laid siege to Vienna. If not for a run of freak rainstorms that delayed his progress and forced him to leave behind much of his artillery, it is virtually certain that the Turks would have taken the city. Germany, then, would have been at their mercy.

Yet, even while these close shaves were taking place, something else was brewing in Europe—something unprecedented in human history. The Renaissance, born from a strange mixture of Roman values, medieval piety, and a unique respect for commerce and entrepreneurialism, had led to other movements like humanism, the Scientific Revolution, and the Age of Exploration. Even while fighting for its life, Europe was preparing to expand on a global scale. The Protestant Reformation, which rejected the papacy and the doctrine of indulgence, made Crusades unthinkable for many Europeans, thus leaving the fighting to the Catholics. In 1571, a Holy League, which was itself a Crusade, defeated the Ottoman fleet at Lepanto. Yet military victories like that remained rare. The Muslim threat was neutralized economically. As Europe grew in wealth and power, the once awesome and sophisticated Turks began to seem backward and pathetic—no longer worth a Crusade. The "Sick Man of Europe" limped along until the 20th century, when he finally expired, leaving behind the present mess of the modern Middle East.

From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. But we should be mindful that our medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the name of political ideologies. And yet, both the medieval and the modern soldier fight ultimately for their own world and all that makes it up. Both are willing to suffer enormous sacrifice, provided that it is in the service of something they hold dear, something greater than themselves. Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the Crusades, it might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam’s rivals, into extinction.

Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including A Concise History of the Crusades, and co-author, with Donald Queller, of The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople.

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Elliott_wave
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Bezzle,

Anything that disagrees with your desire to blow up people is dismissed as "propaganda", so I'm not going to waste my time with this rather minor issue.

Suffice it to say, I'd like to hear how a "libertarian war" half way around the world could possibly be justified.

Murray Rothbard: Just War
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/roth....

Leaders of religions and governments are more or less tolerant, depending upon what the perceived interests of the leadership is, and what they think they can get away with.

Since religion is mostly a bunch of nonsense anyway, it can be used to justify any permissive or repressive policies.

I have no doubt that if some influential people in Islam found free markets and individual rights profitable, Islamic doctrine would be quickly re-interpreted to accommodate it.

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I don't understand what's so hard about this. Just address one simple thesis - who develops and controls nuclear weapons. Instead, I see some vague reference to a "common needs" argument that was supposedly made, without even defining these terms, and here we go off into the Crusades redux, a period certainly open to varying interpretations, to say the least.
If Bezzle won't address it here, I will. Nuclear weaponry was on the theoretical-practical table as a result of progress in pure science associated with the industrial revolution, and the accompanying moves in the theoretical and applied sciences. It was a "fait accompli" that some nation would harness the atom. The only question, as early as the 1920's was, who? The answer was two airbursts over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, actions which undoubtedly shortened that war, and ushered in a new era on the planet. That accomplishment has been thoroughly documented, and most here are probably somewhat familiar with the essentials.
How in hell do a bunch of loosely-allied anarcho-capitalists defend against that?? Good luck. Talk about beating their swords into plowshares. The ONLY way nuclear technology was ever going to be developed into weapons (and nuclear power) was through a concerted effort at a central state level, with national-level access to the needed resources. Let's see, "we'll hire out our guards from Wackenhut." Good luck with that.
Once developed, how are nukes to be organized, deployed, controlled, and maintained. After all, we can't have these things just being subject to the capricious whims of a few people who answer only to themselves, can we? Bill Gates? Howard Hughes, to go back a ways? No, the only way this can work is within the framework of a powerful central government, preferably one with working checks and balances. This isn't the 19th century, and wishing and hoping doesn't make reality.
I shouldn't have to say this (but I suspect I'd better), but none of this posits that we have an ideal functioning arrangement in our current power structures. Far from it. We have, of course, seen Mr. Franklin's worst fears borne out, and are living daily with the results of "too much democracy, not enough republic." (Bribeocracy, in a word.) The point is that we live in a complex world, with ascendant technologies that transcend much of the world view of the more enlightened cognoscenti of the 18 and 19th centuries. We have to be able to adapt to those changes, somehow, to ensure the common defense and maintain our position in the vanguard of a changing world.
Even if you could eliminate the USG, what would become of the nuclear stockpile? Who would administer that? Highest bidder?? I believe one might want to re-think some of their positions, if they were, in fact, even the slightest bit interested in Mr. Baugh's core issues and arguments. It's pretty clear to me that there are good reasons to have a central government with some ability to tax (to pay for things like the Manhattan Project); now let's rein it in and apply it to things that make sense for its people.

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Downrange,

Why would some nation want to bomb a region of diffuse city states?? Where is the profit in that?

This worry about some nut detonating a nuke for ideological reasons is just silly. Wars happen b/c one party perceives the potential profit motive for implementing a tax system.

Do a search in the forums for John Mereshire. You will find old posts of mine where I deal with this issue.

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Anything that disagrees with your desire to blow up people is dismissed as "propaganda",
smiley

Let's see now, what should I place faith in: a Crusade historian, or unsourced claims which are probably coming off crank websites obsessed with whatever those nefarious "neo-cons" (the 21st century code-word for those horrible Jew-lovin' supporters of Israel, or some close approximation) are up to?
Quote:
so I'm not going to waste my time with this rather minor issue.
But you just did.
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I have no doubt that if some influential people in Islam found free markets and individual rights profitable, Islamic doctrine would be quickly re-interpreted to accommodate it.
Islam is not a "religion", EW; it is a government more despicably evil than anything you could ever imagine out of Capitol Hill in your worst nightmares. It is promulgated by violent and insane ascetics who do not give two ****s for "profits".

But don't take my word for it when you can listen to the psychotic mullahs give you the lowdown themselves:


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Elliott, wars are about empire, control, and domination. When the atom was split, the world changed forever. Notice, we haven't had a land war like WW1 and 2 since? Good reasons for that.
No one has addressed the issue of the proper role of a state, and what happens when you throw advanced technologies (like nukes) into the picture.
I'll look for your old posts.

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This worry about some nut detonating a nuke for ideological reasons is just silly. Wars happen b/c one party perceives the potential profit motive for implementing a tax system.
Don't forget the raping, plundering and taking of slaves.

http://www.lnsart.com/Sudan%20Slave%20St....

Sudanese slaves awaiting sale, year 2000
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Arab "retrievers" (slavers).
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A young boy of 8 was captured in a raid. While walking to the masters homes a young girl could not walk further and collapsed. The Arabs cut her head off killing her immediately. They told the young boy to carry the head. For five days the boy carried the head. By this time the head was disintegrating and was so smelly that the captors told him to burn it. In the Dinka tradition, burning any human body parts was taboo. An older woman nearby raised her hands and voice in protest. She was severely beaten. Then the captors put a gun to the head of the boy and he burned the head. That was six years ago. The memory was evidently fresh as if it was today, in his mind. I heard so many stories like this one. A girl resisting******had her hand placed into a bed of hot coals causing her fingers to be burned off. Then the five captors each had their way with her. Another very pretty girl had her captors get into a fight over her. Each wanted her for his wife. After a severe fight they stopped, determining that she was the cause. They placed hot knife points to her chest and burnt it severely. It was one episode after another. The cruelty of the northern Moslems on the Christian Dinka's, whom they considered unclean and an inferior people, is uniquely sadistic and cruel.
Just a little "demographic conquest" here, folks. Nothing to see. Move along.

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Bezzle,

I have no sympathy for Islam, or their barbarous practices around the world. But I think you fall into the fallacy you despise -- collectivist thinking -- when you talk about "Islam" independently from particular people and places.

Religious thinking is so vague and ambiguous as to be logically trivial -- it can be used to attack or defend anything. You grant islamists too much credit for consistency where it isn't deserved.

Fyi-- did you read Rothbards article on Just War? Any comments on how it applies in this situation?

Downrange: Nuclear weapons have been used ONCE in conventional military conflict. If you are so afraid of a nut setting off a nuke, why didn't the Soviets do so in Afghanistan, and why doesn't the US do so in either Iraq or on in Afghanistan as well? Why hasn't India nuked Pakistan of viceversa.

Because war always has a profit motive if you think about it long enough.

If governments weren't so damn restrictive in terms of civilian access to technology (ie. Thorium reactors) there would be minimal incentive for wars and conflict because too many people would be making too much money.

Look at what happened to the USSR's stockpile on collapse, and that is likely to happen here as well. Regions strong enough to break away from command and control are going to keep what they have.

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I guess we aren't going to have an intelligent discussion about the limitations of anarcho-capitalism here. Not one poster has stepped up and addressed the childish, yes, childish idea that, somehow, we can all turn in a circle three times and undo the last hundred years of Statism. Nukes exist. They always were going to exist, as they are a natural progression in the development of technology that began with man taming fire.

Elliott, destroying high value civilian targets was practiced in EVERY war since history began. Logic and profit be damned. In fact, we bombed a good bit of Europe and Asia into the "stone age" in the last "great war." Then, the internationalists got to tighten their reins further upon the global subjects, while profiting from the "rebuilding" of the ruins. Now Japan and Germany have enjoyed many decades atop the industrialist dung heap, and are stanch "allies."

Baugh is right about so many things, but some here just can't seem to see the forest for the damn trees. There is no way to organize a modern, technologically-driven society, except as a central government. That fact does not excuse the excesses of that government, nor its subjugation of its citizenry as tax slaves. A better premise for this discussion (rather than positing something that can NOT exist), would be to try to figure out how to structure a central .gov that is MINIMALLY INVASIVE, taxes as little as possible to ensure the protection of its members (which includes a true "defense" capability and efforts to remain at the TOP of the tech race), and is truly represented by the productive. Obviously "one man (biped) - one vote" has to go.

Just some suggestions for a fruitful direction this discussion might go; rehashing the crusades, villainizing one dominant cult over another will lead nowhere, and will actually turn off otherwise interested researchers who might profit from the ideas of Baugh, Rand, and others. This kind of pud-pounding polemical discussion, while obviously "fun" for some of the participants does nothing to shed any light, and actually pushes people away.

Edit: oh yeh, can't let that stand, Elliott, Russia's nukes were not "regionalized," despite your allusion to that. Ridiculous. States keep on in some form or other...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_and_....

and Ukraine, it's largest "region"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_wea....

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Downrange,

I just don't get what it is you are really trying to find out -- its as if your question presumes its own answer. Yes nuclear weapons exist. Sociopathic political leaders exist -- not a good combination.

Your fear of some nut dropping bombs could very well happen NOW, and even in spite of sociopaths running the show. The US could decide to drop nuclear weapons on any particular enemy. India could nuke Pakistan, or vice versa. Why don't they?

The implicit premise of your question is that somehow a "nation-state" presents a means of projecting force and deterring attack, while an anarcho-capitalist societies would not.

Tell me, what makes you think that an-cap city-"states" (I use that for lack of a better adjective, but not in the sense that there would be some entity with a monopoly on force) would not be able to either produce, or purchase, the means to field a defensive force?

While certainly not an an-cap society, the Swiss defense strategy -- a citizen militia, with decentralization of the military, was enough to deter the Nazis.

What I suspect is that nuclear technology would evolve to be -- less destructive, and widely available, so that small regions could have that capabilty if they so desire.

I'm just not seeing the payoff for an attacker to spend millions or billions on atomic weapons, to drop on a region with no centralized network to siphon off revenues via taxation.

And I'm not seeing the advantages of a centralized, national military. It takes 2 nations to make war, and for every war, there is at least one loser -- making the "nation-state" a successful means of defense, at best, a 50/50 proposition.

Please, do look up my older posts on this issue.

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I'll add 2 cents.
In the absence of tax funding for nuclear technology development and maintenance, I would voluntarily contribute to its funding if such development, maintenance, security benefited me. I doubt I am alone. I also would not fund such group if I did not believe their interests aligned with my own.

I'm new at this subject and may be out of my depth, but I would venture to say that "government" or "organization" can exist without the power to tax and without a monopoly on the use of force. That is not to say it is unfunded or insecure, just funded voluntarily, secured voluntarily.
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I think you fall into the fallacy you despise -- collectivist thinking -- when you talk about "Islam" independently from particular people and places.
Rubbish. The Suras of Muhammad are what they are, and any Muslim who does not abide by them is "not a real Muslim" according to the fanatics who have them all memorized. The real Islam is a patriarchal rape, plunder and murder cult whose trappings of "religion" exist to justify those activities -- it always has been, and always will be. Whenever and wherever Islam has "reformed" itself historically, it has always resulted in a quiescent regime becoming more militant -- this can be seen in virtually all Islamic nations during the last thirty years as the introduction of mass communication has enabled violent fanatics to effectively organize and seize power from decadent governments, or form their own parallel ruling organizations (Iran has several of these factions, and the "official" government must "consult" (kow-tow to) the clerics.)
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Religious thinking is so vague and ambiguous as to be logically trivial -- it can be used to attack or defend anything. You grant islamists too much credit for consistency where it isn't deserved.
Whether or not one considers the thoughts of insane and violent lunatics to be "logically trivial" or inconsistent is irrelevant; what matters is what they do.

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Rubbish. The Suras of Muhammad are what they are, and any Muslim who does not abide by them is "not a real Muslim" according to the fanatics who have them all memorized.


Whenever the term "real" appears before some word, it virtually always means something arbitrary and subjective:

Examples:
"Real Americans" support the troops.
"Real Christians" condemn abortion.
"Real men" have no trouble attracting women.

The term "real" in these contexts serves as a shaming tactic to get you to overlook that the speaker is claiming the right to define certain concepts in an advantgeous way.

Bezzle, I have no doubt that there are SOME Muslims who define "real Muslims" as you describe. I simply question their power and relevance to Americans who are more than a few thousand miles away from them.

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Whether or not one considers the thoughts of insane and violent lunatics to be "logically trivial" or inconsistent is irrelevant; what matters is what they do.


Exactly. For the vast majority of America, those nutjob Muslims can't do a damn thing.

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interesting stuff, thanks for the info/debate.

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"In other words, that the discussion about what is good, what is beautiful, what is noble, what is pure and what is true, could always go on. Why is that important, why would I like to do that? Because that's the only conversation worth having." Christopher Hitchens.
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Whether or not one considers the thoughts of insane and violent lunatics to be "logically trivial" or inconsistent is irrelevant; what matters is what they do.
Exactly. For the vast majority of America, those nutjob Muslims can't do a damn thing.
Attempting to confine the context of the effects of Islam to Americans, when the consequential subject of 21st century slavery has been introduced, constitutes evasion.

(More people are slaves in Africa right now than were ever transported to the Americas over the course of three centuries.)

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My concern is Americans. If you prefer, in the fashion of Don Quxiote charging at windmills, want to rid the ME of slavery, good luck. Sadly, any time Westerners poke their noses into the affairs of others, those people do not appreciate it.

Slavery in Africa is horrible. What they need to do is rise up like the Haitians, or like the Somali, and kick the bastards in the nuts. But their fight has no direct bearing on me, and most other Americans.

Speaking of evasion, you read that Rothbard piece yet?

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My concern is Americans.
Who's wallowing in collectivist group-terminology now?
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<Rothbard>
...is an ignorant ass of a very common paid-to-talk type whom I label "self-discreditors". Typically for the species, Murray will be going on some philosophical point (and getting straight-As in it), but then say something so mind-blowingly retarded that it's literally all that any intelligent listener can remember later as the enduring foulness of it rashes their hide like a Carolina chigger.

<segue>

Case in point, a single line from your link:
Murray Rothbard, demonstrating that he failed American History, wrote..
To be specific, the two just wars in American history were the American Revolution, and the War for Southern Independence.
I'm sure that played well to the Confederate poopyhead revisionists at LewRockwell.crank.

-- The historical reality (which I've remarked upon at least twice before in this forum; search user:Bezzle, term:Sumter) is that all of the states of the Confederacy peacefully seceded over the course of November 1960 to February 1961. But South Carolina (seceded in December) was greedy: it demanded Fort Sumter (a union fort on a dinky low island in Charleston harbor without any capacity whatsoever to be military threatening given a status quo of peaceful secession already two months locked-in. But nooo, this was a matter of Southern pride and all that honor-bound horse**** which both fat-bellied, slave-owning aristocrats and belligerent, saber-carrying alpha-male students of the Napoleonic arts felt they possessed in virtuously superfluous quantities.

-- So let's see now: there's you and there's this other guy who's almost three times your size splitting a pizza. You demand a third of it. He shrugs and lets you have it. But he is partial to the midget sausage meatballs; and there's this really tiny one hanging on to one of your slices by a string of cheese as you pull them away. He stabs a fork in the meatball and says, "Mine."

Do you enjoy your three slices of pizza, or do you attack the huge guy to get the midget meatball?

Bellicose, swaggering douchebag generals and politicians in South Carolina started the Civil War at 4am on April 12, 1961 by bombarding Fort Sumter -- two months after the entirety of the South had secession in the ****ing bag. The rest of the southern states, with only the barest shred of any nascent government in Richmond, which could have backed away from the brawl -- instead jumped right in.

...and so the big guy decided to keep the whole pizza and beat the little guy to a pulp.

Sucks being stupid and weak when you start fights, doesn't it?

--

Oh, I'm sorry; did Rothbard say something else worthy of my time? Myeh. Too bad. There's billions of people on the face of the earth; and some of 'em I only give one chance, because, you know, my attention calendar is already over-crowded in a finite lifespan. I'll have to schedule him into the next reincarnation.

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Bez,

I can see we are not going to get beyond this dispute, even though I agreee with you on 95% other issues.

The fact is, in the "real" world, too often, it is impossible to decide which party in a dispute as serious as waging war is blameworthy; frequently both of them are, and getting involved only increases the destruction and loss of life.

The point is to limit, if it is impossible to eradicate the damage due to wars.

It is clear your mind is solidly closed on the matter. Nothing that fits your preconceived notions is considered; just dismissed as "crackpot tin."

If you think the South would be independent today if only it hadn't fired upon Ft. Sumpter, I just don't know what to say. Your standards for waging combat are arbitrary. If someone wants to impose his will upon you, don't you have a right to resist? If so, why was the Southern act morally wrong, not just tactically flawed?


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If you think the South would be independent today if only it hadn't fired upon Ft. Sumpter, I just don't know what to say.
EW? I have virtually zero tolerance for people who are persistently, stubbornly ignorant of easily verifiable history. -- In my ledger, it's auto-fail.

Seven Southern states declared secession by February of 1861. While the Lincoln government rejected the legitimacy of the secession, it did not actively prevent it, or, for that matter, have any means to do so. US military installations in the south (with the exception of Fort Sumter) were quietly abandoned. -- So, what were the shiny, happy, brand-new Confederate States of America's interim president Jefferson Davis' first decisions? Throw a big party and send up balloons celebrating their easy-won, God-given states-right to own and sell slaves as enshrined front-and-center in each of their articles-of-secession documents (that being, of course, the entire reason the secession happened in the first place)? Why no! His first decisions were that Fort Sumter be taken by force, and that a 100,000-man army be raised (this at a time when there wasn't much of an army in the North to speak of -- and this fact certainly contributed to Southern overconfidence and subsequent bellicosity). Lincoln did not call for enlarging union armies until after Fort Sumter was attacked.

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If governments weren't so damn restrictive in terms of civilian access to technology (ie. Thorium reactors) there would be minimal incentive for wars and conflict because too many people would be making too much money.
Jesus ****ing Christ on a banana-peel; do people fly winged horses to work in this fantastic parallel utopiaverse you come from? Is the sheer will to evil an utterly alien concept to the denizens of your celestial realm in the heavens?

-- Fundamentalist zealots don't care about money -- they care about domination. "Islam" means submission. You will submit to their domination.

fanatics mutilating themselves with their own scimitars in order to whip themselves into a blood-rage frenzy
inline

You think these psychotics give a **** about thorium reactors putting a chicken in every pot? Computers, cars, cell-phones, and petro-bucks falling out of the sky aren't reforming them, so what makes you think thorium reactors will?

They're not looking to be free of a government; they're seeking to impose one.

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Christ bezzle, you have all of the answers to everything. How could I have doubted you. /sarc

Again, because SOME muslims behave like sadistic *******s, that means all of them are impervious to reason? Please.

And you have absolutely NOTHING to say about the innocents killed by drone strikes or the like? You ****ing hypocrite. Don't talk to me about "morality" when you turn a blind eye to that ****.

There are times when a person horrified at what goes on in the world must simply come to grips with the fact that other alternative courses of action,aside from doing nothing, only make matters worse.

Ah yes. I know, the drone strikes NEVER kill innocent noncombatants. Anyone who is killed MUST be guilty of something b/c the mighty bezzle says so.

I've had enough of this discussion, and it is no longer a productive use of my time to point out your bloody hypocracy.


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