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User Info Possible melt-down of Jap nuke plant in forum [NotSoBreaking]
Kamath
Posts: 1539
Incept: 2009-04-04

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Bajorgensen: I am not going to eat any plutonium pills. I am going to say it's essentially a non-issue if you have a large enough supply of anti-oxidants in your body. All damage it can do is oxidative.

Most people don't have enough antioxidants, and the RDA's are way too ****ing low.

Most people don't even know that iodine is a great electron carrier and likely our very first antioxidant. I actually use Iodoral (iodide and iodine) regularly for its chelating effects, among other effects.

The Japanese people eat between 13 and 40 micrograms of iodine every day from their seafood. 1 Iodoral-pill of the strength I use is 13,5 mg.

Please see my post on page 84 in the other thread. And no more childish bull**** bets. This is a serious matter, and I have run the math on the radiation and checked out the electron levels (not sure what this is called in English) and read studies. When I make a statement, it is rarely something I just throw out for the fun of it, except for some political tirades and one-liners now and then.

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"Yep - and that ****er didn't want to light either. I had to soak it in gasoline for a full day before that rat bastard thing would combust." - Karl Denninger
""We could not be more ill served if we had some South American tribal witch doctor shaking monkey bones at us. "
- Infidel
Abn0rmal
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Green A True American Patriot!
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Of all the things that they need to accomplish at Fukushima Daiichi keeping the spent fuel pool full of water should be one of the easiest. If absolutely all else fails they can string together a long fire hose, drop one end into each the pool and just pump seawater into them to keep the spend rods covered.
Penguinzee
Posts: 222
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True to a degree, Abn, but that HuffPo piece made clear that the spent fuel pools were above ground, next to the reactor vessel... if that explosion managed to blow the roof off the reactor building, I'm sure it didn't just decide to ignore the storage pool either.

It would be a simple job to keep the pool full if the pool has not been damaged, as you note, but atm, I'm not sure that is the case here-wouldn't be surprised if there were leaks and cracks in the pool, and considering how heavy all that construction is, I'll bet they're doing all they can to shore it up. Not sure about a lot of things, of course, but I hope they at least have sent some robots around to do inspections around the pool (they're crazy about robots over there) and if needed, already have plans swinging into action...

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Crime is far too lucrative a game to let the little people play.-popofthebright
Abn0rmal
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That Huffington Post piece has problems like this one:
Quote:
Once the water drops to around 5-6 feet above the assemblies, dose rates could be life-threatening near the reactor building.
True to an extent, but really only relevant to anyone above the reactor building. Shielding basically works on a straight line basis. As long as you're below the spend fuel the height of the water that's above the spent fuel doesn't really affect the dose you receive.
Penguinzee
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And this was the concern I had... right before your quote...

"If a pool wall or support is compromised, then drainage is a concern." Considering the explosion at the #1 reactor, methinks this qualifies as a concern...

Not arguing about MSM inaccuracies (which we know are legion) but even blind squirrels find their nuts once in awhile...

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Crime is far too lucrative a game to let the little people play.-popofthebright
Abn0rmal
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That explosion didn't look strong enough to break through several feet of reinforced concrete - it just blew the sheet metal off the building without affecting the frame very much - but that concrete did just experience a magnitude 9 earthquake...
Mdrive
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good, fundamental and detailed article about what happened at fukushima

http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fu....

<snip>

What happened at Fukushima

I will try to summarize the main facts. The earthquake that hit Japan was 7 times more powerful than the worst earthquake the nuclear power plant was built for (the Richter scale works logarithmically; the difference between the 8.2 that the plants were built for and the 8.9 that happened is 7 times, not 0.7). So the first hooray for Japanese engineering, everything held up.

When the earthquake hit with 8.9, the nuclear reactors all went into automatic shutdown. Within seconds after the earthquake started, the control rods had been inserted into the core and nuclear chain reaction of the uranium stopped. Now, the cooling system has to carry away the residual heat. The residual heat load is about 3% of the heat load under normal operating conditions.

The earthquake destroyed the external power supply of the nuclear reactor. That is one of the most serious accidents for a nuclear power plant, and accordingly, a "plant black out" receives a lot of attention when designing backup systems. The power is needed to keep the coolant pumps working. Since the power plant had been shut down, it cannot produce any electricity by itself any more.

Things were going well for an hour. One set of multiple sets of emergency Diesel power generators kicked in and provided the electricity that was needed. Then the Tsunami came, much bigger than people had expected when building the power plant (see above, factor 7). The tsunami took out all multiple sets of backup Diesel generators.

When designing a nuclear power plant, engineers follow a philosophy called "Defense of Depth". That means that you first build everything to withstand the worst catastrophe you can imagine, and then design the plant in such a way that it can still handle one system failure (that you thought could never happen) after the other. A tsunami taking out all backup power in one swift strike is such a scenario. The last line of defense is putting everything into the third containment (see above), that will keep everything, whatever the mess, control rods in our out, core molten or not, inside the reactor.

When the diesel generators were gone, the reactor operators switched to emergency battery power. The batteries were designed as one of the backups to the backups, to provide power for cooling the core for 8 hours. And they did.

Within the 8 hours, another power source had to be found and connected to the power plant. The power grid was down due to the earthquake. The diesel generators were destroyed by the tsunami. So mobile diesel generators were trucked in.

This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more.

At this point the plant operators begin to follow emergency procedures that are in place for a "loss of cooling event". It is again a step along the "Depth of Defense" lines. The power to the cooling systems should never have failed completely, but it did, so they "retreat" to the next line of defense. All of this, however shocking it seems to us, is part of the day-to-day training you go through as an operator, right through to managing a core meltdown.

It was at this stage that people started to talk about core meltdown. Because at the end of the day, if cooling cannot be restored, the core will eventually melt (after hours or days), and the last line of defense, the core catcher and third containment, would come into play.

But the goal at this stage was to manage the core while it was heating up, and ensure that the first containment (the Zircaloy tubes that contains the nuclear fuel), as well as the second containment (our pressure cooker) remain intact and operational for as long as possible, to give the engineers time to fix the cooling systems.

Because cooling the core is such a big deal, the reactor has a number of cooling systems, each in multiple versions (the reactor water cleanup system, the decay heat removal, the reactor core isolating cooling, the standby liquid cooling system, and the emergency core cooling system). Which one failed when or did not fail is not clear at this point in time.

So imagine our pressure cooker on the stove, heat on low, but on. The operators use whatever cooling system capacity they have to get rid of as much heat as possible, but the pressure starts building up. The priority now is to maintain integrity of the first containment (keep temperature of the fuel rods below 2200°C), as well as the second containment, the pressure cooker. In order to maintain integrity of the pressure cooker (the second containment), the pressure has to be released from time to time. Because the ability to do that in an emergency is so important, the reactor has 11 pressure release valves. The operators now started venting steam from time to time to control the pressure. The temperature at this stage was about 550°C.

This is when the reports about "radiation leakage" starting coming in. I believe I explained above why venting the steam is theoretically the same as releasing radiation into the environment, but why it was and is not dangerous. The radioactive nitrogen as well as the noble gases do not pose a threat to human health.

At some stage during this venting, the explosion occurred. The explosion took place outside of the third containment (our "last line of defense"), and the reactor building. Remember that the reactor building has no function in keeping the radioactivity contained. It is not entirely clear yet what has happened, but this is the likely scenario: The operators decided to vent the steam from the pressure vessel not directly into the environment, but into the space between the third containment and the reactor building (to give the radioactivity in the steam more time to subside). The problem is that at the high temperatures that the core had reached at this stage, water molecules can "disassociate" into oxygen and hydrogen – an explosive mixture. And it did explode, outside the third containment, damaging the reactor building around. It was that sort of explosion, but inside the pressure vessel (because it was badly designed and not managed properly by the operators) that lead to the explosion of Chernobyl. This was never a risk at Fukushima. The problem of hydrogen-oxygen formation is one of the biggies when you design a power plant (if you are not Soviet, that is), so the reactor is build and operated in a way it cannot happen inside the containment. It happened outside, which was not intended but a possible scenario and OK, because it did not pose a risk for the containment.

So the pressure was under control, as steam was vented. Now, if you keep boiling your pot, the problem is that the water level will keep falling and falling. The core is covered by several meters of water in order to allow for some time to pass (hours, days) before it gets exposed. Once the rods start to be exposed at the top, the exposed parts will reach the critical temperature of 2200 °C after about 45 minutes. This is when the first containment, the Zircaloy tube, would fail.

And this started to happen. The cooling could not be restored before there was some (very limited, but still) damage to the casing of some of the fuel. The nuclear material itself was still intact, but the surrounding Zircaloy shell had started melting. What happened now is that some of the byproducts of the uranium decay – radioactive Cesium and Iodine – started to mix with the steam. The big problem, uranium, was still under control, because the uranium oxide rods were good until 3000 °C. It is confirmed that a very small amount of Cesium and Iodine was measured in the steam that was released into the atmosphere.

It seems this was the "go signal" for a major plan B. The small amounts of Cesium that were measured told the operators that the first containment on one of the rods somewhere was about to give. The Plan A had been to restore one of the regular cooling systems to the core. Why that failed is unclear. One plausible explanation is that the tsunami also took away / polluted all the clean water needed for the regular cooling systems.

The water used in the cooling system is very clean, demineralized (like distilled) water. The reason to use pure water is the above mentioned activation by the neutrons from the Uranium: Pure water does not get activated much, so stays practically radioactive-free. Dirt or salt in the water will absorb the neutrons quicker, becoming more radioactive. This has no effect whatsoever on the core – it does not care what it is cooled by. But it makes life more difficult for the operators and mechanics when they have to deal with activated (i.e. slightly radioactive) water.

But Plan A had failed – cooling systems down or additional clean water unavailable – so Plan B came into effect. This is what it looks like happened:

In order to prevent a core meltdown, the operators started to use sea water to cool the core. I am not quite sure if they flooded our pressure cooker with it (the second containment), or if they flooded the third containment, immersing the pressure cooker. But that is not relevant for us.

The point is that the nuclear fuel has now been cooled down. Because the chain reaction has been stopped a long time ago, there is only very little residual heat being produced now. The large amount of cooling water that has been used is sufficient to take up that heat. Because it is a lot of water, the core does not produce sufficient heat any more to produce any significant pressure. Also, boric acid has been added to the seawater. Boric acid is "liquid control rod". Whatever decay is still going on, the Boron will capture the neutrons and further speed up the cooling down of the core.

The plant came close to a core meltdown. Here is the worst-case scenario that was avoided: If the seawater could not have been used for treatment, the operators would have continued to vent the water steam to avoid pressure buildup. The third containment would then have been completely sealed to allow the core meltdown to happen without releasing radioactive material. After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants. Depending on the damage, the block of the plant would then either be repaired or dismantled.

Now, where does that leave us?

* The plant is safe now and will stay safe.
* Japan is looking at an INES Level 4 Accident: Nuclear accident with local consequences. That is bad for the company that owns the plant, but not for anyone else.
* Some radiation was released when the pressure vessel was vented. All radioactive isotopes from the activated steam have gone (decayed). A very small amount of Cesium was released, as well as Iodine. If you were sitting on top of the plants' chimney when they were venting, you should probably give up smoking to return to your former life expectancy. The Cesium and Iodine isotopes were carried out to the sea and will never be seen again.
* There was some limited damage to the first containment. That means that some amounts of radioactive Cesium and Iodine will also be released into the cooling water, but no Uranium or other nasty stuff (the Uranium oxide does not "dissolve" in the water). There are facilities for treating the cooling water inside the third containment. The radioactive Cesium and Iodine will be removed there and eventually stored as radioactive waste in terminal storage.
* The seawater used as cooling water will be activated to some degree. Because the control rods are fully inserted, the Uranium chain reaction is not happening. That means the "main" nuclear reaction is not happening, thus not contributing to the activation. The intermediate radioactive materials (Cesium and Iodine) are also almost gone at this stage, because the Uranium decay was stopped a long time ago. This further reduces the activation. The bottom line is that there will be some low level of activation of the seawater, which will also be removed by the treatment facilities.
* The seawater will then be replaced over time with the "normal" cooling water
* The reactor core will then be dismantled and transported to a processing facility, just like during a regular fuel change.
* Fuel rods and the entire plant will be checked for potential damage. This will take about 4-5 years.
* The safety systems on all Japanese plants will be upgraded to withstand a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami (or worse)
* I believe the most significant problem will be a prolonged power shortage. About half of Japan's nuclear reactors will probably have to be inspected, reducing the nation's power generating capacity by 15%. This will probably be covered by running gas power plants that are usually only used for peak loads to cover some of the base load as well. That will increase your electricity bill, as well as lead to potential power shortages during peak demand, in Japan.
Penguinzee
Posts: 222
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Tampa Bay, FL
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Abn,

I think it was quite a bit more than sheet metal up on the top there... they get typhoons through there as well (most recently in 2009) so methinks it's somewhat better than your typical steel warehouse...

...but this is only arguing about where to put the deck chairs on the Titanic... :-)

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Crime is far too lucrative a game to let the little people play.-popofthebright
Hapablap21
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I know it's already been mentioned, but "the plugs didn't fit"? Seriously?
Chris11
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And here is where the above story went thin:

"This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more."

You can hook up a Diesel generator without connectors. There are 4 cabels to connect with bolts or whatever. If you have no cables at hand go find some with a Helicopter and a gas powered angle grinder at any construction site. Anything will do since you need only 1 wire per cable.
Since this was not done there is something more to the story we are not told.
The high pressure cooling pumps which can get water into a pressured boiler, think about 3000psi like in a full dive tank need MWs of power.

I have the imprssion that the first venting of the #1 which did the hydrogen explosion could have been the safety valve operating on itself to reduce overpressure. If this was the case then there was no human interaction at all whatever that tells us.

Agau
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Yeah really - no wire stripers and bugs?
The_venerable
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They also said the water level was NOT rising.

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The kingdom is falling.
Hapablap21
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and really, even if it wasn't a problem that's easily field-fixable, how about finding some generators that have the right plugs? Did every generator supplier on the planet tell you to GFY?
Asimov
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The plug thing is likely a bad translation or something. It's NOT that hard to change a connection - or just wire it straight in.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Redhatty
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Obama can take my guns right after he gives me his valid long form birth certificate.
Agau
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Yeah , they are in cover up mode. This talk about connectors is nonsense
Mdrive
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there is more on the connectors that didn't fit in the comment section of the blog

http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/0....

Quote:
Soliah says:
March 13, 2011 at 8:30 pm

This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more."

Really? Power plugs did not fit? I'm sure there's more to this part than just that.

*
morgsatlarge says:
March 13, 2011 at 8:43 pm

That was humor, I am sure, knowing the writer personally he would be making a very dry joke.
o
Gregor Gruber says:
March 13, 2011 at 8:53 pm

no there are actually several reports that they were not able to connect mobile generators because of missing (fitting) cables
*
Max says:
March 13, 2011 at 9:34 pm

that is true. there are lots of different ways to connect these things and they had some plan but were unable to get things in place because of some incompatibilities. Saw it on a live broadcast here in Japan on NHK.

Considering all the different types of hard drives I can and cannot connected to my computer (eSata, USB 2.0, FW400, FW800, USB 3.0) It's not hard to grasp the idea that every mobile diesel generator is not plug-and-play with every 40 year old BWR.

Jeffrey_thomason
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Wonder if it's related to the 50/60hz split between West and East Japan...

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When they turn the pages of history, when these days have passed long ago. Will they read of us with sadness for the seeds that we let grow?
Asimov
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Quote:
Based on information provided by Japanese authorities, the IAEA can confirm the following information about the status of Units 1, 2 and 3 at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Unit 1 is being powered by mobile power generators on site, and work continues to restore power to the plant. There is currently no power via off-site power supply or backup diesel generators being provided to the plant. Seawater and boron are being injected into the reactor vessel to cool the reactor. Due to the explosion on 12 March, the containment building has been lost.

Unit 2 is being powered by mobile power generators on site, and work continues to restore power to the plant. There is currently neither off-site power supply nor backup diesel generators providing power to the plant. The reactor core is being cooled through reactor core isolation cooling, a procedure used to remove heat from the core. The current reactor water level is lower than normal but remains steady. The containment building is intact at Unit 2.

Unit 3 does not have off-site power supply nor backup diesel generators providing power to the plant. As the high pressure injection system and other attempts to cool the reactor core have failed, injection of water and boron into the reactor vessel has commenced. Water levels inside the reactor vessel increased steadily for a certain amount of time but readings indicating the water level inside the pressure vessel are no longer showing an increase. The reason behind this is unknown at this point in time. To relieve pressure, venting of the containment started on 13 March at 9:20AM local Japan time. Planning is underway to reduce the concentration of hydrogen inside the containment building. The containment building is intact at Unit 3.

The IAEA is seeking information about the status of spent fuel at the Daiichi plant.


http://www.iaea.org/press/?p=1188

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
The_venerable
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SMOKE RISING FROM FUKUSHIMA

URGENT!!

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The kingdom is falling.
Punch_rockgroin
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White smoke is from reactor #1. Explosion heard from reactor #3.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/

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Put the boots to him. Medium style.

Drumm23
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Quote:
Unit 3 does not have off-site power supply nor backup diesel generators providing power to the plant. As the high pressure injection system and other attempts to cool the reactor core have failed, injection of water and boron into the reactor vessel has commenced. Water levels inside the reactor vessel increased steadily for a certain amount of time but readings indicating the water level inside the pressure vessel are no longer showing an increase. The reason behind this is unknown at this point in time. To relieve pressure, venting of the containment started on 13 March at 9:20AM local Japan time. Planning is underway to reduce the concentration of hydrogen inside the containment building. The containment building is intact at Unit 3.


So we're particularly looking at Unit 3 now and trying to understand why the water level inside the reactor vessel is no longer rising.

Oh and the Nikkei futures just fell pretty hard again.

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"If you don't know what you want...you end up with a lot you don't." — C. Palahniuk

Jeffrey_thomason
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Anyone else hearing that Daiichi 3 has exploded ala Daiichi 1?

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When they turn the pages of history, when these days have passed long ago. Will they read of us with sadness for the seeds that we let grow?
Punch_rockgroin
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Yes. Just heard on NHK

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Put the boots to him. Medium style.
Jeffrey_thomason
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****... I only see two containment buildings..

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When they turn the pages of history, when these days have passed long ago. Will they read of us with sadness for the seeds that we let grow?
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