Market Ticker Forums
Detailed market commentary at The Market Ticker and Ticker Classics (The Year 2012 In Review)
Donations accepted; we offer GOLD ACCESS for enhanced privileges. T-Shirts, caps, coffee mugs? Click here.
BlogTalkRadio - Mondays at 3:30 Central - Yes, TickerGuy has a radio show (kinda)
Rss Icon RSS available You are not signed on; if you are a visitor please register for a free account!
Posting in this area at this time is restricted; see the FAQ for our donor program.
Sponsored Advertising
To remove advertising from your display upgrade to Gold Donor status
MarketTicker Forums Read Message in NotSoBreaking
User: Not logged on
Top Forum Top Login Control Panel FAQ Register Logout
User Info Ireland on the Brink of Collapse in forum [NotSoBreaking]
Mondocondo
Posts: 3684
Incept: 2007-12-03
Green
Miami
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List Ignore this thread
They can barely let the words pass their lips, but some of the EU's most important policymakers were forced this week to discuss what was once unthinkable: that at least one of the 16 eurozone countries might be on the brink of ditching the single currency.

Jean-Claude Trichet, president of the European Central Bank, admitted that the 10-year-old eurozone was under "extreme strain", with weaker countries struggling to keep their economies afloat in the face of the devaluation of other currencies, such as sterling and the dollar.

Joschka Fischer, Germany's former foreign minister, darkly suggested that we would soon find out whether the eurozone would turn out to be "a disaster", while the German finance ministry is vacillating on whether it would be prepared to bail out insolvent states.

The current thinking is that Germany and France, as the strongest economies in the zone and "lenders of last resort", would have to bail out failing states: the prospect of the eurozone breaking up would bring the future of the EU into question.

But the most startling fact to emerge this week is that the country which is seen as the most vulnerable, and therefore the most likely to ditch the euro, is not Slovenia, or Cyprus, or Greece, but Ireland.

Until a year ago, the Republic's Celtic Tiger economy, which attracted such blue-chip companies as Dell, Microsoft and Intel, seemed unstoppable. In a decade, the Irish economy grew by almost 90 per cent, catapulting it from one of the poorest countries in Europe to the fourth-richest per capita. Government advisers from as far afield as Chile and Israel made pilgrimages to marvel at a model that they were desperate to emulate.

Not any more. All of a sudden, Ireland's debt-fuelled economy, built largely on a construction boom, has collapsed in a more spectacular manner than almost any other in Europe. Irish government bonds are rated as the riskiest in the EU (see graphic), and there has been panicky talk of Ireland as "the next Iceland".

On the streets, there is a whiff of revolution, with 120,000 people staging Dublin's biggest mass rally in 30 years last weekend to protest at the government's handling of the economy and its decision to impose what amounted to a pay cut on public sector workers. The unions have now threatened a "Doomsday" strike next month if the prime minister, Brian Cowen, does not think again. As the celebrated Irish economist David McWilliams put it: "The entire Irish episode will be studied internationally in years to come as an example of how not to do things."

So how did it all go so wrong?

Visiting Dublin this week, I took a stroll down the south bank of the River Liffey, to the site where Ireland's tallest building, the U2 Tower, should by now have been rising out of the ground as the ultimate symbol of the Celtic Tiger's "economic miracle". Designed by Lord Foster, the
60-storey glass skyscraper was to have housed dozens of one-million euro apartments (£1 million), topped by a penthouse recording studio for Ireland's most successful band.

Instead, there was nothing to see but dead grass, crushed beer cans and a rusting skip inhabited by 3ft weeds. Two months ago, the developers postponed the project indefinitely. This scruffy patch of former dockland represents the end of the dream for Ireland, whose "economic miracle" was largely based on a crazy construction bubble, fuelled by tax incentives, which, when it finally (and inevitably) burst, created a black hole that threatens to suck in the rest of the failing economy.

In 2006, Ireland (population 4.2 million) built 88,000 houses, compared with 150,000 in the UK (population 60 million). At one point, a fifth of the workforce, swelled by tens of thousands of immigrants, worked in construction.

Irish families on middle and even low incomes cashed in their pensions or borrowed heavily to buy second, third or even fourth properties, believing they could rent them out to the migrant workers who had caused net immigration for the first time in Ireland's history. They could borrow from banks that enjoyed one of the loosest regulatory regimes in Europe, and which shipped in money from abroad to further stoke up the boom.

Ireland now has up to 350,000 empty homes – more than its entire private rental market – many of them simply abandoned as builders went bust. House prices are expected to fall by 80 per cent.

Ireland might have been able to withstand Europe's most savage property collapse had not its export trade been shredded at the same by currency devaluation in its two key markets – Britain and America.

The relative rise in the value of the euro against sterling and the dollar has made Irish goods – and wages – prohibitively expensive. Businesses in the north of the Republic are on their knees because competitors in Northern Ireland are undercutting them by as much as half.

In an ominous sign of things to come, the computer firm Dell has announced 250 redundancies at its plant in Limerick, simultaneously confirming that it intends to create thousands of new jobs in Poland.

The slump in the Irish job market means that the country's youth, who for years now have been able to find jobs at home, are once again having to look abroad for employment, so that the Republic may soon return to its traditional pattern of net outward migration. Already, large numbers of Irish workers are moving to Britain seeking work.

Crucially, the Irish government is powerless to act because, as a member of the eurozone, it has no control over interest rates or currency devaluation.

While the Bank of England could cut interest rates to one per cent and plans to devalue sterling with "quantitative easing", the Irish have had to resort to desperate measures to reduce their budget deficit, such as the public sector wage cuts which led to the mass demonstrations.

Evidence of the effect on Ireland's real economy, as unemployment heads towards 10 per cent, is everywhere.

In Dublin's docklands, once expected to become a sort of European Dubai, row upon row of kitchen suppliers, interior design and furniture shops have closed since my last visit nine months ago, their windows covered in a thick layer of grime.

Catherine Claffey, whose family have sold flowers at the same pitch in Grafton Street, a few yards from Chanel and Louis Vuitton, for 85 years, told me business was down 60 per cent on last year.

"I've only been able to keep going because I've never taken out any big loans," she said. "But I have friends earning very modest salaries in the public sector who have been told their wages are going to be cut by 500 euros a month. How are they going to survive?"

A hundred yards down the road, a group of taxi drivers was staging a noisy protest over the government's failure to manage taxi numbers. Thousands of workers who have lost their jobs in other sectors have been allowed to set up as cabbies, meaning that Dublin now has 16,000 licensed taxis. New York, with a population 17 times as large, has 13,000.

Andy Doyle, a cabbie for 20 years, said: "There are so many taxis now that you can be waiting two-and-a-half hours on a rank before you pick up a fare. Yesterday I waited an hour and three quarters for a 6.20 euro fare. You just can't live on that. But the government is happy to let it go on because it keeps the unemployment figures down. It's madness."

The resounding "No" vote in last year's referendum on the European Constitution suggested that Ireland has finally fallen out of love with Europe. But will it now take the ultimate step and ditch the euro?

Sean Murphy, director of policy at the business organisation Chambers Ireland, believes not.

"Everything positive in the Irish economy for the past 30 years has been driven by our membership of the EU," he said. "In the long term it will continue to benefit us. We have a small, flexible economy, which means we will be able to turn it round much quicker than a bigger economy like the UK's.

"It's become clear that we need a more balanced, diverse economy, with more jobs in things like alternative energy and information technology. I believe our EU membership can only help with that."

But if the Irish economy, and that of other struggling EU states, continues to nosedive, the cohesion of the eurozone is likely to be tested to breaking point.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/4864532/....
Arcone
Posts: 2094
Incept: 2008-02-09
Green
NYCville
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
There are over 50k "for hire" vehicles in NYC. Otherwise, Ireland is in deep trouble.

Madman
Posts: 1691
Incept: 2007-09-13
Green
ct,USA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
maybe time to buy a vacation home!!!! my family roots are in county cork...

----------
Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed. -- Abraham Lincoln..

Jamesbond
Posts: 589
Incept: 2009-01-31

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The dilemma: Ireland is too big to allow to fail, yet too big to save.
Dirtysouth
Posts: 2766
Incept: 2007-09-20
Green
Love Truth Honour ॐ
Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Happy Saint Patrick's Day!

----------
Forest First...Trees Second
Feb 9 ~ Mar 11 ~ Apr 09 ~ May 09 ~ Jun 07 ~ Jul 07 ~ Jul 22 ~ Aug 06 ~ Sep 04 ~ Oct 04 ~ Nov 02 ~ Dec 02 ~ Dec 31
Mo
Posts: 12158
Incept: 2007-06-26
Silver
Pa.
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
"It's become clear that we need a more balanced, diverse economy, with more jobs in things like alternative energy and information technology


So the next race to the bottom will be countries trying to underprice eachother in making 'green' products.

China will win.

----------
Welcome to Pottersville
Pika-steph
Posts: 54702
Incept: 2007-09-11
Gold A True American Patriot!
Live Free Or Die; US Army Est. 1775
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Haven't they been 'on the brink of collapse' for a couple of months now? smiley

----------
Stop the Looting; Start Prosecuting - http://www.FedUpUSA.org/
inline
"The only regulation that really works is failure."--Rick Santelli
Jamesbond
Posts: 589
Incept: 2009-01-31

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Pika-Steph wrote..
Haven't they been 'on the brink of collapse' for a couple of months now?


Yeah, but the brink is becoming increasingly precarious. And at some point ...
Anarky321
Posts: 720
Incept: 2008-01-22
Green
USA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
ukraine, spain, england, switzerland, united states, japan, iceland, russia, venezuela

just some of the names who are just as ****ed as Ireland; this is going to suck EVERYWHERE

and honestly i have no compassion for any of them, this crisis was brought on by rampant consumption, easy credit and greed, not by the upper class but by the lower class, the "ill cash out my retirement fund and buy a house as an investment", the "i really need that 2nd SUV", the "lets buy that 50" plasma tv...the payments are so low!"
Timessquare
Posts: 369
Incept: 2007-08-29
Green
New York, NY
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
So my old partner from the 90's called me Thursday night to chat. I've been in the doom and gloom camp for the past 4 years and he's been in the happy sunshine camp. He once told me that when he retires from the job (NYPD), he's going back to Ireland to "flip houses", that was about 2 years ago. When I told him that I thought that was a bad idea and that he should prepare for a collapse and move his 457K into the most stable of the funds, he laughed and said that his family was making a killing back home and if he did move his 457K into a stable fund he'd be missing out on the 20-30% annual returns. Well today nearly all 457K are down 49% from Jan 2008 and his family is in deep financial troubles back home.

When we began to speak I told him that I thought about him last week and wanted to call him to ask him how bad things were back home in Ireland. He says that out-ward migration of both the native Irish as well as the immigrants that settled in Ireland over the last decade, has increased significantly. He's originally from Dublin and his wife is from Cork. He tells me that his brother who has been with the Garda (Police) for 31 years just got the shaft from the government. In a nut shell, they (.gov)ain't gonna allow these guys (Garda) to retire as they normally could have. Their pensions will be about half of what they should have been receiving and they will not be collecting a lump sum payout upon retiring, which under normal circumstances they would. So his brother says that he's stuck and can't retire because in his words the pension is about 25% of his salary and "he can't even get a job as a taxi driver".

I told him that we might be getting the same deal if things continue the way they've been going.

Pika-steph
Posts: 54702
Incept: 2007-09-11
Gold A True American Patriot!
Live Free Or Die; US Army Est. 1775
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Wow. I didn't know there were still NYPD that came from Ireland. That's cool.

----------
Stop the Looting; Start Prosecuting - http://www.FedUpUSA.org/
inline
"The only regulation that really works is failure."--Rick Santelli
Arrack979
Posts: 1354
Incept: 2008-07-15
Green
Blue State Hell
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Now for a more important question. How will this affect my ability to acquire Magner and Guiness? smiley

----------
Go green, kill yourself.
Timessquare
Posts: 369
Incept: 2007-08-29
Green
New York, NY
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Hi Pika,

Not too many from Ireland anymore. Now most NYPD cops who are from overseas area from Eastern Europe, Asia, Latin America. Additionally, there has been an influx of non-NYers joining us. They join us for the same reasons that the Irish & Italians joined over a hundred years ago... it pays the bills and it provides a great stepping stone for upward socioeconomic mobility. No matter what part of the States or World where we come from, we're still the best cops in the world : )

Unfortunately for many, we won't be hiring this July or next January, the normal hiring periods. We use to hire thousands during these two periods. No mas for now. The rookies are scared that they might be the first to go if things get hairy. Anyway, let me not take this thread away from it's focus.

Ireland is screwed, but I'm hoping that the UK goes first. I have much more sympathy of the Irish than for the Brits.

Pika-steph
Posts: 54702
Incept: 2007-09-11
Gold A True American Patriot!
Live Free Or Die; US Army Est. 1775
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Ireland is most certainly in big trouble. Ironic that some here in the US were just starting to recognize that Ireland had increased their GDP tremendously by lowering taxes on businesses. Guess that lesson will get flushed with the oncoming implosions.

I'm glad you stuck around, Times - and yes, NYPD, certainly among the best in the world. My grandfather was a fire chief - founded a department here in the Detroit-metro area. He was from England and many of his friends and further flung members of the family went to NYC and became police officers in the 1920s, 1930s. To me, NYPD represents all that is (can be) right with America.

----------
Stop the Looting; Start Prosecuting - http://www.FedUpUSA.org/
inline
"The only regulation that really works is failure."--Rick Santelli

Lk
Posts: 13163
Incept: 2008-03-13
Gold
DC - VA
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Arrack, that's about the best business for bad times.
Arrack979
Posts: 1354
Incept: 2008-07-15
Green
Blue State Hell
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Lkr,

Thank God b/c I'll certainly need to ge good and drunk one last time before I'm shipped of to a reeducation camp. This would all be a lot more funny if it wasn't true.

----------
Go green, kill yourself.
Obseedian
Posts: 11872
Incept: 2007-07-26
Silver
BBRY Central
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
"Happy Saint Patrick's Day! "

Well, the Irish never had a better reason to drink, that's for sure.

----------
Would you give your money to these banks? http://bankimplode.com/list/troubledbank....

“Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything.” - Joseph Stalin
Moroni
Posts: 2182
Incept: 2008-12-03

New York, NY
Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Empty homes and condos today are the bachelor pads of tomorrow. Everything works out in the end.

----------
"Those institutions and individuals who insist upon clinging to the dying past will wither with it. Those who understand the death process will not mourn the passing of the old,
but instead celebrate the birth of the new paradigm." - Gerald Celente, Trends Journal Q12010, Page 20
Chroot
Posts: 134
Incept: 2008-03-20
Green
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I was at dinner tonight with a lady with family in Ireland. Of her six brothers, four are now out of work. Luckily they have a family farm to fall back on - one they all tried so hard to escape.
Eel
Posts: 241
Incept: 2008-04-12

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Ireland is definitely not going to "ditch" Euro. That would be suicidal. The extremely minor risk for € to cease to exist comes from Germany. They're the only country that could survive throwing away Euro.

Also it's not $ that has been devaluing, but €, despite higher interest rates. And those interest rates are going to be cut to near-zero.

Any country leaving Euro will not do it from a position of weakness, but strenght.

This article is misleading.
Arcone
Posts: 2094
Incept: 2008-02-09
Green
NYCville
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Pika-steph wrote..
NYPD represents all that is (can be) right with America.


That's nice Pika, but I assure you there are plenty of LE agencies in this great country with lesser problems and better solutions for the stresses of the job. However, given the size and complexity of NYC, the PD, and its rich Irish heritage, does a great job.
Rvacha
Posts: 8295
Incept: 2008-10-03
Gold
Cleveland
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Eel-
Why wouldn't/couldn't the Euro ditch Ireland instead of the other way around?

----------
"I suggest you panic." - Hugh Hendry
Statusquojoe
Posts: 2784
Incept: 2008-11-20
Green A True American Patriot!
Land of the fees Home of the slaves.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
Crucially, the Irish government is powerless to act because, as a member of the eurozone, it has no control over interest rates or currency devaluation.


Ah yes the benefits of losing one's sovereignty. Ireland used to be a model of liberty and freedom only to be sucked into one of the greatest collectivist ponzi scams of all time. I would have pity for them if I wasn't so cynical.

----------
There are so many rules no one knows which rules to follow. The only sure rule is more rules will follow. SQJ.
Eel
Posts: 241
Incept: 2008-04-12

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Rvacha, if they went down that road, where would it end?

It's more probable that German leaves the euro, which in itself is highly unlikely.
Top Forum Top Login Control Panel FAQ Register Logout