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We, of course, cannot prosecute such acts outside the boundary of The United States.

So what does the IRS and Treasury do? They use existing international trade and drug-trafficking agreements to put pressure on foreign banks to "cooperate" and release client bank records for Americans with offshore accounts. This tactic works in most small countries because they don't want to suffer the consequences of getting black listed by the U.S.

I have no problem with the IRS going after tax cheats, but this banking scrutiny has an ugly side too. One consequence of this foreign meddling is that it's now difficult or impossible for average Americans to open a simple checking account in many countries because the banks don't want to deal with the overhead and hassles. We claim too be a modern country, a champion of individual freedoms, so why shouldn't U.S. citizens be allowed to move their legally-obtained and taxed wealth, to any place they want?

Thank you Karl, I was beginning to feel that I was a voice in the wilderness. Your Ticker expresses my take on this issue precisely. BTW - it isn't just U.S. citizens who hide wealth and income through these banks - so if the globe begins to treat these tax havens as the pariahs they are, then the Swiss will feel a lot of pressure to change their laws. BTW - I could agree with the many who feel the U.S. gov't spends too much and therefore taxes too much. However, I could never agree that the proper response is to cheat. The proper response is to elect like-minded representatives, shrink the federal budget and make the U.S. tax code fairer (and hopefully simpler). But apparently many TFers disagree and I suspect you will hear plenty from them.

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One consequence of this foreign meddling is that it's now difficult or impossible for average Americans to open a simple checking account in many countries because the banks don't want to deal with the overhead and hassles.

The saying "there's no such thing as a free lunch" comes to mind. If the banks want your business, they'll go through the "hassle." If not, they won't. It seems pretty damn clear cut to me. Are you trying to say you're entitled to open an account abroad, and foreign banks are entitled to open one for you hassle free? Sorry, no dice.

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We claim too be a modern country, a champion of individual freedoms, so why shouldn't U.S. citizens be allowed to move their legally-obtained and taxed wealth, to any place they want?

You can move your wealth wherever you want, provided you follow the existing laws. What's so hard to understand??

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You can move your wealth wherever you want, provided you follow the existing laws. What's so hard to understand??

It's you who doesn't understand. U.S. law says I can legally wire money to a bank in say Santiago Chile for a real estate transaction. OK, I go to Santiago walk in to several banks, inquire about an account, and get the same story, "Sorry, we cannot open new accounts for Americans." This is actually happening around the world because the federal government is leaning on foreign banks to open their records, records that are often protected by privacy laws in those countries.

In effect, the federal government is instituting what amounts to capital controls, and disguising them as a law enforcement program.

Just another good reason to institute the Fair Tax, then we'd not need to comply with stupid laws and regulations expressly designed to separate Americans from their money.

Tesla++

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We claim too be a modern country, a champion of individual freedoms, so why shouldn't U.S. citizens be allowed to move their legally-obtained and taxed wealth, to any place they want?

They can as long as they comply with the law. The bank doesn't want to open the account because the bank doesn't want the hassle of having to comply with the law. I don't like those laws either, the solution is to get them changed or removed, not to excuse allowing a bank or corporation to operate here without complying with our laws because we happen to dislike these particular laws. Of course it's much easier to ignore the law then enact change, but that's no excuse.

With Tesla on this, if there is a way to keep more of my money I'm all for it. The current tax system is pure theft.

What Kab said. I'm all for reforming laws..

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They can as long as they comply with the law. The bank doesn't want to open the account because the bank doesn't want the hassle of having to comply with the law. I don't like those laws either, the solution is to get them changed or removed, not to excuse allowing a bank or corporation to operate here without complying with our laws because we happen to dislike these particular laws. Of course it's much easier to ignore the law then enact change, but that's no excuse.

You just don't get it. The banks that refuse to open accounts for Americans are in foreign countries. Most don't have branches here in the USA, so there is zero nexus, and the feds don't like that one bit. Our beneficent federal government wants access to the bank records of Americans worldwide, even if those records are held by foreign banks where no U.S. laws apply

What part of "no U.S. laws apply" is a mystery to you?

It is very, very difficult for me to get upset with people who wish to protect their hard-earned wealth from the ravages of our out-of-control government.

If we had a government that limited itself to Constitutionally-delegated issues (foreign trade / relations, national defense, interstate commerce that is actually commerce that does, in fact, cross state lines, not just commerce that might somehow be construed to possible cross a state line at some point in the future), I would be very upset at anyone who evaded taxes. As things stand...

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The saying "there's no such thing as a free lunch" comes to mind. If the banks want your business, they'll go through the "hassle." If not, they won't.

The corollary of this, of course, is "If most of the banks don't want to go thru the hassle, the ones that do will charge an appropriate premium".

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You just don't get it. The banks that refuse to open accounts for Americans are in foreign countries. Most don't have branches here in the USA, so there is zero nexus, and the feds don't like that one bit. Our beneficent federal government wants access to the bank records of Americans worldwide, even if those records are held by foreign banks where no U.S. laws apply

What part of "no U.S. laws apply" is a mystery to you?

Oh, sorry, I missed the part where you were bringing up a completely different situation than what the ticker was about. My mistake, thought you were on topic.

More commonsense...time for our government to implement a bit of commonsense.

Here is part of the problem:

"As of 2009, Gramm is employed by UBS AG as a Vice Chairman of the Investment Bank division. UBS.com states that a Vice Chairman of a UBS division is "...appointed to support the business in their relationships with key clients." He joined UBS in 2002 immediately after retiring from the Senate."

While I agree with Gen, there is the issue that no Sovereign Nation is entitled to dictate what another Sovereign Nation, does internally.

Domestic affairs are entirely the affair of the relevant Sovereign Nation.

That does indeed mean that one Sovereign Nation can ask another Sovereign Nation whatever it likes, but no Sovereign Nation is obligated to give any response whatsoever.

If a business seeks to do business in another Sovereign Nation, then it must abide by the laws of that Sovereign Nation WITHIN that Nation.

If it cannot legally comply with those laws due to infringement of their own domestic Sovereign Nations laws, then they should not do business in the Nation that can compromise the legal standing and legitimacy of the other Sovereign Nation.

Switzerland is not at fault in this, and neither is America (though what might be seen as possibly seeking extra National Sovereign powers might well be considered of dubious legitimacy, to say the least).

The fault lies with the Company that seeks to benefit by placing both Sovereign Nations in an unnecessary situation. So yes, pull their licences domestically.

That's how I see it, anyway.

eta: typo Gen "Therefore, the correct response for the United States is to *immediatel* revoke UBS' "

Exactly.

That I want to see as many people keep as much of their money as possible, that I loathe the tax laws, that other banks aren't doing business with Americans because of other pressures, etc. are all irrelevant. They either follow the law or they gtfo.

Oh! Do wake up! The US, the UK and their 'territories' are the biggest tax havens in the world - for anyone and everyone except for their own citizens.

So does everyone start revoking everyone else's banking licenses because each country doesn't like the fact that other countries 'lawfully' choose to have tax laws that don't mirror their own? (except for the privileged and silently exempted of course)

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So does everyone start revoking everyone else's banking licenses because each country doesn't like the fact that other countries 'lawfully' choose to have tax laws that don't mirror their own? (except for the privileged and silently exempted of course)

Nobody is talking about revoking the UBS bank charter because Swiss laws do not mirror our own. We're talking about it because if the UBS wants to operate in this country they should have follow the laws in this country. If they don't want to, fine, don't operate here. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Really, should I be able to go setup shop in Switzerland and not follow their laws because they aren't ours? Should the Swiss then have to tolerate me operating in their country without following their laws? Really?

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Nobody is talking about revoking the UBS bank charter because Swiss laws do not mirror our own. We're talking about it because if the UBS wants to operate in this country they should have follow the laws in this country.

No, the IRS wants the UBS offices in Switzerland to turn over records of accounts held over there, and that was ruled contrary to Swiss law. UBS branches in the U.S. comply with U.S. laws regarding records for funds held in U.S. accounts, but the IRS and treasury want the whole enchilada. Don't you see how stupid this is?

It's not stupid at all.

UBS is the company. Where the BRANCH happens to be is immaterial.

You want a US banking license? Then you provide service to US Citizens (anywhere) under US law.

Else, **** off on the US banking license.

"Nobody is talking about revoking the UBS bank charter because Swiss laws do not mirror our own. "

Revoking their license from operating in the US is exactly what's being demanded - and the reason is because their laws are different in ways that the IRS doesn't like.

e.g. Their banking laws (used to permit) anyone to open an account in Switzerland and maintain their privacy. What's being demanded is that they remove the privacy of those accounts held 'in Switzerland' thereby breaking their own banking laws.

However, the US and UK will not do the same for (privileged) overseas accounts held in their own havens - nor would they expect to have their licenses revoked in those other countries.

So, what is so hard to comprehend about that hypocrisy?

You have the last two questions ass-backwards.

1. The question is not whether you should be able to setup shop in Switzerland and NOT follow their laws. It's whether you should be able to setup shop and follow THEIR laws instead of HAVING to follow some other country's laws just because the other country doesn't like Swiss laws.

Similarly, you should not have to follow Swiss laws in your own country if your own country's law are different.

2. No - of course the Swiss don't have to tolerate you operating in their country without following their laws - but it's a dumb question because breaking THEIR laws isn't the issue - is it?

The question should be:

Should the Swiss prevent you from lawfully operating in their country according to THEIR laws because some other country has different laws?

Really?

And if they then permit other countries' laws to supercede their own, should they then not bother having any laws at all and just enforce everyone else's. If so, which country's laws take precedence? Who deterimines the law hierarchy?

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You want a US banking license? Then you provide service to US Citizens (anywhere) under US law.

Citi has offices in Japan, and probably fifty other countries around the world. Should they allow the Japanese government access to account information for Japanese citizens living in the U.S.? What about the 49 other foreign governments, should they be able to march into Citi branches in the U.S. and demand records too? Where does this end other than badly?

This is an overreach by Treasury and the IRS, and IMO the Swiss court rightly smacked them down. If they want to prosecute Americans for tax evasion (not an international crime) then they should hire some spies or get the NSA on it, don't expect foreign companies operating under sovereign laws to do the spade work for them.

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Citi has offices in Japan, and probably fifty other countries around the world. Should they allow the Japanese government access to account information for Japanese citizens living in the U.S.? What about the 49 other foreign governments, should they be able to march into Citi branches in the U.S. and demand records too? Where does this end other than badly?

If Citi wants a JAPANESE banking license, yep.

If Citi wants to say "pound sand!" they can. Japan's government has every right to revoke their banking license IN JAPAN.

If Citi believes its worth it, then it does.